198 FILES SPOILERS!!!

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ick...That's all we need(more reminders of that horrible plot-point). I personally, would like to forget the whole Puck had a demon in him thing..thanks. Let's just pretend she's a mutant and leave it at that.

Dana

[HappyCanuck]

I don't like to ignore plots, not even crappy ones like this one. It's much more interesting to take the godawful plot points and make them feesable.

[Le Messor]

Zuzha Yu is Puck's daughter. She is amazingly acrobatic and can hit with an incredible amount of force. I doubt she's a mutant, likely got her powers because Dad was carrying a demon sorcerer at the time. Lobdell had her say she could speak before she was born. Nothing beyond that.

Something beyond that.

It's just... Nobody knows what.

- Le Messor
"Don’t tell me what you dream’d last night for I’ve been reading Freud."

[cmdrkoenig67]

I don't like to ignore plots, not even crappy ones like this one. It's much more interesting to take the godawful plot points and make them feesable.

Works better, if it's ignored(or better yet...retconned away)...it is a huge continuity screw up on Mantlo's part. He should have read the Byrne issues more closely(where it was clearly stated that Eugene suffered from Achondroplasia), before writing that foolishness(IMHO).

Dana

[HappyCanuck]

While I don't agree, Dana, on the principle that retconning and ignorance is the lazy-man's way (or DC's - look at Crises on Infinate Earths), I believe we've had this argument before, and don't think we need a rehash...

Edit: I should specify - yes, Mantlo screwed up with that, THAT I agree to, but I don't think it should be ignored or retconned, since it IS now established as fact, thus we're stuck with it. if you ignore it or retcon it, then you're no better than the other hack writers that we complain about on this board.

[cmdrkoenig67]

While I don't agree, Dana, on the principle that retconning and ignorance is the lazy-man's way (or DC's - look at Crises on Infinate Earths), I believe we've had this argument before, and don't think we need a rehash...

It's fine to disagree with me, however...the only ignorance was Mantlo's...in coming up with that idiotic and totally contradictory tale of demon/sorcerer-possession and those following writers who kept perpetuating that massively bad idea.

Puposely ignoring such a contradiction would neither be lazy or ignorant... simply smart(Not a letter of it, should have been written in the first place). There is no reason to ever address it(Razer-possession) again. It's a huge continuity problem and everyone here knows it.

Dana

[HappyCanuck]

again, while I agree with you IN PRINCIPLE on both the fact that Mantlo wasn't paying attention, and that there's REALLY no reason to worry about it again (Since Raazar hasn't been seen in AF since AF 50), again, I don't agree that simply saying 'it didn't happen' isn't the right answer, because all THAT does - esp to a newer reader who doesn't have the same insight as we do - is convolute the story that much more, making the writer of THAT tale just as ignorant of facts as Mantlo was.

[cmdrkoenig67]

again, while I agree with you IN PRINCIPLE on both the fact that Mantlo wasn't paying attention, and that there's REALLY no reason to worry about it again (Since Raazar hasn't been seen in AF since AF 50), again, I don't agree that simply saying 'it didn't happen' isn't the right answer, because all THAT does - esp to a newer reader who doesn't have the same insight as we do - is convolute the story that much more, making the writer of THAT tale just as ignorant of facts as Mantlo was.

Not touching on the Sorcerer-possession/not ever bringing it up again, does not make a writer ignorant of any facts(as long as he knows about all of it). Saying it never happened, does not make him ignorant either...Had he not read any of John's run....then he'd be ignorant. There's a difference between purposely ignoring something and being unaware(ignorant) of it.

Dana

[kozzi24]

I think you were wrong on one point, Dana. No subsequent writer ever dealt with Raazor as being part of Puck. IIRC, he was used in a X-Force Annual or someplace like that.

The Razzor plot can be written off as the Dreamqueen's earliest influence over the team, specifically Puck. The demon was put back in at the end of the issue, not seen again until Puck was "freed" of him in #50...by Asgardian magic, which had previously increased Puck's stature without demonic reference in the 1st X-Men/Alpha LS.

Instead of being a retcon, this explaination actually tightens continuity, so should be acceptable to Allan's POV. The demon does not even have to be mentioned again because Puck is now an athletic dwarf who was involuntarily genetically engineered to have strength and durability akin to hardened rubber.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I think you were wrong on one point, Dana. No subsequent writer ever dealt with Raazor as being part of Puck. IIRC, he was used in a X-Force Annual or someplace like that.

The Razzor plot can be written off as the Dreamqueen's earliest influence over the team, specifically Puck. The demon was put back in at the end of the issue, not seen again until Puck was "freed" of him in #50...by Asgardian magic, which had previously increased Puck's stature without demonic reference in the 1st X-Men/Alpha LS.

Instead of being a retcon this explaination actually tightens continuity, so should be acceptable to Allan's POV. The demon does not even have to be mentioned again because Puck is now an athletic dwarf who was involuntarily genetically engineered to have strength and durability akin to hardened rubber.

I'm not entirely wrong and I'm not just talking about Razer,...At least Two writers touched upon Eugene having been a non-dwarf(regardless of Razer...it's still a huge continuity flub) Hudnall did it in his Llan stories....and Larry Hama in Wolverine#35-37(where Wolverine and Puck are sent back in time and Puck "regains his height"...a really good story, but as I said...a continuity flub, began by Mantlo)..they don't specifically mention Razer, but it's plain to see Puck wasn't always a dwarf.

Dana

[darc_light]

I remember that in Wolverine, where Puck and Logan are sitting in a boat, talking about "battling their demons", it was a while back, but I do believe Puck implied his demon was literal...just before Lady Dee jumped in the boat and they all went back to 1940's Guernica

Why do they have to ruin everything with demons and magic?
Now Spider-Man got his powers from the African trickster/spider god Anansi and/or totemism and/or the cosmic beings Order and Chaos (Not KHAOS, who's a totally differant demon or whatever-he-is)...whatever happened to the radioactive spider?

I know that magic doesn't really bother most people, I just have this phobia about magic..

[DelBubs]

Could somone do me a favour and give a brief synopsis on what happened to Wolvie and Puck in Guernica, it would be useful?

Thanks in advance.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Could somone do me a favour and give a brief synopsis on what happened to Wolvie and Puck in Guernica, it would be useful?

Thanks in advance.

Ah....Wolvie and Puck fought Nazi's with the help of Ernest Hemingway(there was some bull-fighting in there too, as there should be), while Deathstrike joined a group of Nazi soldiers in trying to take over the city...The Nazi's were torn up pretty bad(mostly by a really peeved Deathstrike)...sorry, that's all I recall at the moment.

Dana

[Legerd]

Could somone do me a favour and give a brief synopsis on what happened to Wolvie and Puck in Guernica, it would be useful?

Thanks in advance.

Lady Deathstrike forces the mutant Gateway to send her to the place Wolverine was gazing upon at that moment, which turns out to be Puck's photo taken back in WWII. So she, Wolverine and Puck are sucked back through time. Puck regains his height since, at that time, he was demon-free (and lemony-fresh) and relives his memories with Logan along for the ride this time.
Lady D takes up with the Nazis (natch) while Logan and Eugene join the resistance. After a great deal of violence (mostly by Wolverine and Dealthstrike) and some bullfighting (by tall Puck) Gateway carries them back to the present with Eugene and Logan coming up out of the water after having the boat supposedly turned over by Wolverine's antics. Neither one remembers the trip, but Puck's photo now includes Logan. Hilarity ensues... no wait, it didn't. What the hell was I thinking?

[DelBubs]

Thanks for the run down Dana, Legard. Sounds like I didn't miss much. The whole Demon thing is ridiculous, but obviously now part of Marvel Lore