Great Beasts and the Gods of the Artic

[HappyCanuck]

Well, exaclty how many sources on Norse myth do you think there are Happy?!?! There is the Poetic Edda, Snorri' Sturluson's Prose Edda and Heimskringla, Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum, and a scattering of scant references spread throughout the Icelandic sagas. These are our ONLY sources for Viking Age myth and NONE of them say Thor has blonde hair.

First off, call me Allan - its only fitting to call a 'contender' in a disagreement by his true name.

Second, having read all those sourses you quote (well, most of Snorri' Sturluson - damned former roommate stoll the book when she buggered me over), I know of three more, at least. Unfortunately, as I said, I'm in the middle of rebuilding my resourse library thanks to said former roommate, and will be MORE than happy to supply titles, authors, ISBN numbers, etc to you when I get them so you can compare facts. Also, you are only listing so-called 'pure' sourses, not the essayist and comparable-mythologists, among others, who, too, have researched this topic to death. You can't study a religion without studying those who have studied it before, not and keep an academic head on your shoulders.

Thirdly...

I have no idea what you mean by "version" (translation? retelling by contemporay author?), or why you think that many, many, many "versions" exist.

By version, yes I mean - generally - 'translation'. Because dead languages are so much more an artform than a science, what one person reads and what another person reads are TWO different things, thus I tend to look at VARIOUS versions of the story to piece together what I'm reading. Take a look at the Bible - translated and translated, and translations of the translations, and each version (read: translation) reads differently from the other. Why? because translator A read it as one thing, and translator B read it another. You MAY have read one VERSION of the book, but it doesn't mean you've read the same book as me. And that's not to meantion, most of these myths started off as oral tradition (about as reputable as gospel as any rumour), not having been transcribed until several centuries or millennia later... More than likely even the gods have forgotten what the first version was, let alone those who had to later transcribe it, and those later still who translated it.

The available data, on myth, not the values and practices of the religion, is scant ... almost nonexistent, so its just not all that terribly difficult to find and absorb it all.

If you are sticking strictly to the so-called 'pure' sourses (a notion I scoff, since no one reads ancient Saxon as it was actually written), then, to a degree you are right. However, I would contend, there are more than one form of sourse than just the 'pure' sourses. On the side, note I never brought up the values and practices of the religion, since that has no bearing on this discussion... For that matter, why are we getting so hot under the collar because we disagree about Thor's haircolour....?

Sorry.

Don't be sorry on my count. As you can tell, it's been quite a GOOD long while since I had a decent theological/mythological debate. I was in SERIOUS need of one, and you helped me. Okay, so it started with something VERY trivial as Thor's hair, but nonetheless...

[Powersurge]

By version, yes I mean - generally - 'translation'. Because dead languages are so much more an artform than a science, what one person reads and what another person reads are TWO different things

No doubt about it Allen. However, we are not talking a foreign tongue, we are talking the ancestor (or immedaite relation anyway) of the very tongue we are currently speaking right this instance. And, we are not talking an abstract, culturally specific concept, we are talking a simple colour. Just like in the modern tongue, blonde is blonde and red is red, even as one is one and two is two, plainly and simply. There is zero obscurity or debate surrounding this.

Also, while I mistakenly thought it would go without saying, I have read the academic opinions of Stephen Grundy, HRE Davidson, Wilhelm Gronbech, Jacob Grimm, and a wide and varied host of others ... all of whom hold PhDs in the subject. None of them ever thought that t Nordic word for blonde or red could be mistaken for one another. All credible scholars and academics seem to be of the unanimous opinion that word used to describe the colour of Thor's hair was red. And this word was used with fair consistency in describing things ew know to be coloured red.

We could get into an obscurity debate surrounding the specific *meaning* of the colour .... for instance, the vikings meant very different things when they called, say, Heimdall "White" (ie. pure, exceedingly holy)
as opposed to when they called Christ "White" (ie. lacking spirit, vigor, lily-livered), but that is not the issue here.

Of course, when it comes down to it, folks are free to perceive the Almighty's hair colour in whatever way they deem appropriate for them. What some modern person believes or imagines is more relateable or whatever however, was never the issue. What the ancients believed was.

[HappyCanuck]

No doubt about it Allen.

Heh, colour me paranoid, but I think you did that on purpose, but in case not, my name isn't Allen, it's Allan. I get irked when ppl spell my name wrong. Since this is the first time you've used it, I'll let it slide.

However, we are not talking a foreign tongue, we are talking the ancestor (or immedaite relation anyway) of the very tongue we are currently speaking right this instance.

Which I would argue would still be a foreign tongue, just as, although routed in Latin, French is not Latin. There are significant differences between modern English and ancient Saxon going back four thousand years. Enough of a difference that the integration of new 'slang' into canon-language changes everything as you go. Not to meantion, despite the root of words, meaning change through time, so what I read as 'red' is not necessarily the same thing as 'red' in the original context.

And, we are not talking an abstract, culturally specific concept, we are talking a simple colour. Just like in the modern tongue, blonde is blonde and red is red, even as one is one and two is two, plainly and simply. There is zero obscurity or debate surrounding this.

as nice as that is to believe, that is completely wrong. There is no such thing as 'zero obscurity' in something as ever-malleable as language, because, as stated prior, meanings to words DO change over millennia. Not to meantion, how many different words do we have that mean 'red'? How many of them mean the same NOW as they did even a thousand years ago? When I say 'sanguine', you automatically think of the Latin 'Sanguin' - for blood - (or even 'Sangre' in Spanish and 'Sang' in French), and automatically think 'red'. Little do people realise is that 'Sanguin' actually got its name from somewhere else entirely, a guy who was one of the pioneers in gemology in Persia nearly 4,500 years ago. (okay, I'll admit, obscure point, but still, see my point?)

Also, while I mistakenly thought it would go without saying, I have read the academic opinions of Stephen Grundy, HRE Davidson, Wilhelm Gronbech, Jacob Grimm, and a wide and varied host of others ... all of whom hold PhDs in the subject.

As much as that may be true, you can't claim only the 'pure' sourses as the 'soul' sourses of the notion as you had in your previous post, since, you know as well as I, that they are only one drop in the ocean of potential sourses

None of them ever thought that t Nordic word for blonde or red could be mistaken for one another. All credible scholars and academics seem to be of the unanimous opinion that word used to describe the colour of Thor's hair was red. And this word was used with fair consistency in describing things ew know to be coloured red.

We could get into an obscurity debate surrounding the specific *meaning* of the colour .... for instance, the vikings meant very different things when they called, say, Heimdall "White" (ie. pure, exceedingly holy)
as opposed to when they called Christ "White" (ie. lacking spirit, vigor, lily-livered), but that is not the issue here.

It's about time, you hit the nail on the head! And YES, that IS the issue! You just answered your own arguement, and emphasised one of my points: multiple meanings for the same word. Synonyms. Top it off, you have the ideas of metaphor. I have seen it said that Thor had 'fiery' hair - which, to a 21st-century brain would come to mean 'red' - the same was said of Aphrodite (whom mythological scholars primarily agree that her hair was blonde as well). It doesn't necessarily mean that his hair was red, just that it was vibrant. Thus, one could possibly read it as either blond (yellow) or red, both colours prominent in fire.

Of course, when it comes down to it, folks are free to perceive the Almighty's hair colour in whatever way they deem appropriate for them. What some modern person believes or imagines is more relateable or whatever however, was never the issue. What the ancients believed was.

Now THAT is beside the point. This discussion has little or no bearing on what the original Ancients saw and wrote, but how we, the students of a long-dead language, are inclined to translate what they said to be as fact. The contention was not that the Ancients thought Thor's hair was this colour or that, it's that, according to the various translations of the myths we're lead to believe his hair was this or that, and how that applies to modern envisioning of said personage. Stick with the program, man!

Edit: Following posts have been split and a new topic started in 'The Cupboard' - Phil

[kozzi24]

So Thor's hair color is red, like in the older texts I read, some as a child, some in college, and some both.

AllAn, may be next time you should check your sources before just jumping in to arbitrarily contradict someone else.

Heh, colour me paranoid, but I think you did that on purpose, but in case not, my name isn't Allen, it's Allan. I get irked when ppl spell my name wrong. Since this is the first time you've used it, I'll let it slide.

And considering that the spelling of your name is off the norm, some patience would not be justified.

[HappyCanuck]

So Thor's hair color is red, like in the older texts I read, some as a child, some in college, and some both.

AllAn, may be next time you should check your sources before just jumping in to arbitrarily contradict someone else.

Jeff, I HAVE checked my sourses - REPEATEDLY. Some say red while others don't. Obviously, his sourses differ from mine -WHICH IS WHAT I WAS GETTING AT. The colour of his hair was NOT the point, regardless what he'd like to think, just that he obviously DOESN'T have ALL the sourses as he'd like to claim. Second, I don't do anything arbitrarily. Gimme a few weeks for my books to get back to me, I'll give you titles, ISBN's, etc.

Heh, colour me paranoid, but I think you did that on purpose, but in case not, my name isn't Allen, it's Allan. I get irked when ppl spell my name wrong. Since this is the first time you've used it, I'll let it slide.

And considering that the spelling of your name is off the norm, some patience would not be justified.

Hence why I said I'd let is slide. I know the spelling of my name is one of the lesser-common spellings, so I corrected him instead of jumping down his throat about it. Nonetheless, I DO get irked by my name being spelled incorrectly - quite irked I might add - so I figured I DID show patience, considering how I generally react to those who should know better (which is a group I've already stated 'Surge isn't associated with) when they spell it wrong. Btw, I don't particularly being mocked out of spite, either...


... And I'm not going to finish the rest of that thought, since that'd be puerile and serve no purpose than to get OTHERS jumping down my throat for expressing my understanding of facts as I've been taught them...

[Phil]

annnnnnnnnnnnnd we're just a step away from a locked thread....

[-K-M-]

annnnnnnnnnnnnd we're just a step away from a locked thread....

Hooray for off-topic debates.

[Phil]

Hooray for the power to ban.

[-K-M-]

Hooray for the power to ban.

Whoa..whoa, no way was their debate a banable offence.

[Phil]

Not yet, hence not having done so.

[HappyCanuck]

Not yet, hence not having done so.

also hence why I stopped at that last sentence... didn't wanna get MYSELF banned over something so stupid...

[Ben]

I have decided to lock this thread, should anyone want to open a new thread on the ORIGINAL topic, please do so.

Ben