no way that was all a dream............
a nightmare maybe. dream. no way.
no way that was all a dream............
a nightmare maybe. dream. no way.
Dreams and AF
Wow... this is the third day in a row I am making a post to this forum.
Actually, Alpha Flight as a comic has a built-in device that could explain the horribleness of vol 3 (IMO), and she's called The Dreamqueen. To my knowlegde, she was never destroyed and could have returned to the world and infected the dreams of Alphans, making them think that they had been replaced by drop-outs from the Justice League of Europe circa (1990), and that their past-selves had re-materialised in Marvel Reality.
Alternatively, there could be some Marvel comic somewhere, which happens to guest star some of the Alphans, and one of the panel could show Puck waking up going: "Oh God! What a bad dream!" (I think Alan Davis did something similar in the X-Men/Clandestine cross-over mini-series).
BTW, Del, I do remember that reference to the Clinic for Maladjusted Superbeings. It was in a Mantlo issue and Madison makes a passing remark that Judd too had spent time at the clinic. This would be in keeping with Mantlo's quest to destroy Puck's character.
Re: Dreams and AF
Seng, old man, you read my mind...Originally Posted by sengsterooney
Wow... this is the third day in a row I am making a post to this forum.
Actually, Alpha Flight as a comic has a built-in device that could explain the horribleness of vol 3 (IMO), and she's called The Dreamqueen. To my knowlegde, she was never destroyed and could have returned to the world and infected the dreams of Alphans, making them think that they had been replaced by drop-outs from the Justice League of Europe circa (1990), and that their past-selves had re-materialised in Marvel Reality.
Allan 'HappyCanuck' Crocker
"Hey... Philosophers love wisdom, not mankind."
- Stephen Pastis, Pearls Before Swine
I still think Flashback has to die, with him dying a noble death, all temporal anomalies attributable to him would be erased. As for the vol 3 characters, get shot of them all apart from Zuzha and Nemesis (I know she's not really vol 3, but you get the idea). MML could go back to frightening children, Centennial could resume his very promising coma and Yukon Jack can die a nasty and horrible death with no meaning.
Del
Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!
This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continuity&
DelBubs is correct and accurate.
AF# 46, page 16, panel 5 - {Bill Mantlo, writer credited}
Puck's thought balloon: "...and thus passed over the clinic for Socially Maladjusted Super-beings where I, and Mr. Jeffries--and Box--were tested." [The Mantlo version of Puck went out of its way to emphasize how hopelessly non-super he was, even though he supposedly had Raazor inside of him. Built-in inconsistency by the writer himself]
Puck's thought balloon: "We graduated to Alpha when we were presumably 'cured!' "
same issue, page 19, panel 5 -
Jeffries' word balloon: "Delusions! Paranoia!"
same issue, page 20, panel 1 -
Jeffries' word balloon: "Ya've suffered 'em before, Boxxie--don'tcha remember... ...bein' a fat little paraplegic cursin' the whole world for the loss o' his legs-- --when it was no one's fault but fate's!"
"That's what the doctors at the institution tried ta tell ya...!"
[According to AFV1# 12, James checked Bochs' psych-evaluation himself and listed honorable, admirable traits. So basically what Madison implies (if anyone believes him) is that James MacDonald Hudson didn't have any idea who the people he's recruited/banded together really are]
Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."
They were ALPHA FLIGHT....
...once upon a time.
Actually, I have no idea what you're talking about
Unfortunately, I can't just take your word for this. Can you provide examples of a government, specifically the Canadian government, actually recruiting/drafting "criminals, the criminally unstable and the likes," especially for a high-profile, overt team like Alpha Flight?
Actually, it's not uncommon for government agencies to recruit/draft criminals, the criminally unstable and the likes, esp in covert/black ops settings (which DH and Alpha were originally meant to be).
AF# 35, page 5, panel 3 - {Bill Mantlo, writer credited}
Heather's thought balloon: "Mac was head of Dept. H--Canada's super-hero development group. He had a lot of prospects--but no single, dramatic success. He needed a hit--so he made one."
AFV1# 14, page 11, panel 2 - {John Byrne, writer credited}
Judd's word balloon: "At ease, blue boy. Save the heroics for when you need 'em. I'm Puck, of Alpha Flight. I've got G-niner clearance with all national police forces."
If I have to go through my collection and catalog every public appearance of Alpha Flight, I will. Alpha Flight is not a covert strike force. It couldn't be if its true mission is to protect Canada. How are they going to do that without ever being seen?
Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."
They were ALPHA FLIGHT....
...once upon a time.
LOL! Del...you read my mind!
Dana
ALPHA FLIGHT IS RESURRECTED, LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!
Re: This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continu
If you look at all this from one viewpoint, there would seem to be a trend for the Canadian gov to use people with slightly questionable characterisitics. Those who formed the original Omega Flight would seem to have traits that made them suceptable to mild influences, otherwise Bochs should have been turned as well. Walt himself was coherced into altering Wildchilds profile so he could join H. The gov sponsored Gamma Flight that went to arrest Alpha had two members who were indirectly responsible for the death of Mac and a leader who was known as an avenging angel who would/had killed.
We then have Wolverine, certain members of Weapon Prime, the feral Goblyn... Quite a list. Kinda makes a person wish for a self supporting Alpha working independently of the gov.
Del
Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!
Re: This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continu
My sentiments, exactly.
Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."
They were ALPHA FLIGHT....
...once upon a time.
The implants the first Alphans had were originally intended as locator beacons (AF vol 1 #91-93?) they are not the same thing as the influence exerted by Roxxons machine on begruntled members of Dept H. This would suggest that they were not the stuff of heroes to begin with (Alec Thorne AF Special #1)
If we take Alpha as they were first presented, I can see that there would be no reason to question the characters of each member, but if we go into the first series, reality has to be realised by the content of Byrnes work. Each character becomes a person, therefore questionable. Taking that further, and we are asked to go there by Byrnes writing, why aren't future members of Alpha vetted by the lessons learnt from the savagery of Sasquatch and the duplicate personnas of Aurora, not to mention all the other psychosis presented from Alpha members.
Either bad writing(That didn't attempt to follow Byrnes work) or a sense of worth (that encouraged a writer to stamp his own ideas on Alpha) meant that we had to suffer bastardisations of the original idea and thats why each vol since 1 has gone tits up.
As regard Sas hiding the psych profile of Wildchild, it was alluded too in AF#110-117 ish. Close as I can get, Wildchild goes after Wyre and AF go after Wildchild, Walt has a flashback about hiding the profile.
Del
Driftwood: Well, I got about a foot and a half. Now, it says, uh, "The party of the second part shall be known in this contract as the party of the second part."
Fiorello: Well, I don't know about that...
Driftwood: Now what's the matter?
Fiorello: I no like-a the second party, either.
Driftwood: Well, you should've come to the first party. We didn't get home 'til around four in the morning... I was blind for three days!
Re: This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continu
Garry....You mentioned the AF/OF members having the "influencer" implant...I think you're confusing the AF signal implant with Delphine Courtney's "influencer"(a device which was never explained)...Not to mention there is no way that Diamond Lil could have had an implant with her indestructible skin/aura/whatever it is.
The influencer was not a device implanted in the Beta/Gamma members(it may have been a built-in device that Delphine had)..."she" said(and I'm paraphrasing, since I don't have the issue in front of me) that it was encouraging/raising the Beta and Gamma members anger/frustration over losing their places in Dept H and allowing her to "influence" them to turn against James Hudson and AF.
Yes...The AF signal implant was placed in almost all the Flight-members in Dept H, indicated by the multitude of signal call cards Heather came across in Mac's office in issue one of Vol 1(those who did not have the implant...Snowbird, Shaman(?), Mac, Marrina and possibly Diamond Lil with her impenetrable skin. Sasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall(I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in.
Dana
ALPHA FLIGHT IS RESURRECTED, LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!
Re: This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continu
The assertion that AF was originally intended to be a black-ops group is at the heart of this. If it was, then examples should/could be provided to support this assertion, and somebody should be able to do this. Weapon Alpha's first mission was across the border into the U.S., a necessarily covert mission because no government would want to take responsibility for infiltrating another country to retrieve property grafted to a human being. If Hudson was spotted or detained, the Canadian government would probably deny any involvement in the whole thing, leaving Hudson to take the fall by himself. This is as much political cowardice as it is black-ops operation. Suppose Hudson was successful and brought Wolverine back? The X-Men (or whoever he was with in the states) wouldn't wonder what happened to him? This wouldn't even make "comic book" sense.
It was also asserted that the Canadian government intentially, deliberately actively however you want to put it recruits criminals, the criminally insane to be part of Dept. H/Alpha Flight/"super-heroes" and that original members of Alpha Flight had such questionable characteristics that they could easily be lumped into the criminal/criminally insane category. I know that AF is composed of complex people, that's how it became my favorite group. But Jean-Paul and Judd are the only ones with criminal pasts.
Let's assume that there was no doctor-patient violation concerning Madison Jeffries knowing what doctors' said about Bochs' condition [AF# 46, page 19, panel 1]. Why would the doctors tell another patient about Bochs' mental problems but not Hudson, The Minister of Defense, or the Prime Minister? This does not use even "comic book" logic or common sense.
Neither overly hating nor overly loving certain creators' rendition of AF will help anyone truly understand what's really happened in the series. Sure, jumble everything up and anything is possible, but it still won't make much sense. That's the difference between the people who were trying to do a decent AF series and the people who were trying to transform it into The Canadian X-Men.
Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."
They were ALPHA FLIGHT....
...once upon a time.
Re: This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continu
Actually, in AF.1.92 (I think, as I don't have the necessary energy to jump up and check the actual issue - the one where Mac thinks back to the early days), it shows that at least all of the original core Alpha flight (tho Im not sure on Mac) had the implant. It's safe to assume why Lil didn't, but does anyone know why Marrina's was in her necklace?? was there any reason why she COULDN'T have it implanted??Snowbird, Shaman(?), Mac, Marrina and possibly Diamond Lil with her impenetrable skin.
As I said, it was in AF.1.92 ("Compromising Positions", written by Fabian Nicieza, Art by Dan Reed and Richard Bennett) - I broke down and walked the five feet to my bookshelf :P. Chasen wanted to implant a 'fail-safe' mechanism in the various flights so that they could be 'programmed' exactly as Dept. H wanted them to be. Mac found out, caused a riot (which thus ended Chasen's career as liason with Alpha - a story I'd like to see resolved, I doubt he'd be THAT ready tgo out.), and Clarke (who's ALWAYS respectable, naturallySasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall (I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in.) promised Mac it would ONLY be used for communications. So Garry's idea that it's an influencer isn't necessarily far from the truth!
Oh and Sasquatch woudl probably have the chip, since, according to the story, everyone had it, including Snowbird and Shaman - tho I'm not sure if the 'metamorph' failsafe would be in effect (many metamorphs, ie: Mystique, can get foreign bodies out of theirs by shifting their molecules around).
Actually, Byrne said that Department H - not necessarily Alpha, mind - was top secret in AF.1.1.The assertion that AF was originally intended to be a black-ops group is at the heart of this. If it was, then examples should/could be provided to support this assertion, and somebody should be able to do this.
This actually opens itself to an interesting question, tho: how the hell does anyone wearing what amounts to a stylised Canadian flag do ANYTHING 'covert'?? it's not like our flag makes the best of camoflague! I mean, if you wanted to send a covert agent into one of the more paranoid countries on the planet, why the hell would you dress him up in red and white?? Why not the plain black suits they used in AF 102/3 when they illegally went up against Diablo?Weapon Alpha's first mission was across the border into the U.S., a necessarily covert mission because no government would want to take responsibility for infiltrating another country to retrieve property grafted to a human being. If Hudson was spotted or detained, the Canadian government would probably deny any involvement in the whole thing, leaving Hudson to take the fall by himself.
as true as that last line may be, it's not just them that could be considered a 'liability'. Jeanne-Marie is a multiple personality - one which possessed, at first release, a borderline schizophrenic quality, the other who tried to kill herself several times; Walter, a brilliant biophysist who possesses a VERY strong competitive streak as well as an obstinance to prove himself right. I mean this is a man who WILLINGLY subjected himself to VERY hazardous radiation in order to reproduce an accident that produced a rage-filled behemoth-monster, instead opening himself to one of the GREAT BEASTS THEMSELVES. There's no way that could have gone good; Snowbird, who's NEVER hidden the fact that she's using Alpha Flight as means to an end to 'win the war' against the Great Beasts; Marrina's an alien, something the government can't understand, let alone begin to believe they could control, so in their eyes, is a HUGE liability; and Michael's a mystic. from their point of view, what's to prevent him from snapping and magically taking out a small city with his 'spirits'? See, it's not just the known criminals you have to worry about - in fact, there the only RELIABLE ones on the team, since you KNOW what they might be willing to do, but the ones WITHOUT the record!It was also asserted that the Canadian government intentially, deliberately actively however you want to put it recruits criminals, the criminally insane to be part of Dept. H/Alpha Flight/"super-heroes" and that original members of Alpha Flight had such questionable characteristics that they could easily be lumped into the criminal/criminally insane category. I know that AF is composed of complex people, that's how it became my favorite group. But Jean-Paul and Judd are the only ones with criminal pasts.
Mac prolly DID know, but in that regard he seems to be a bit of bleeding heart to the pathologically malaligned. The Minister of Defense probably thought it was a good idea, since in his mind these people were mostly cannonfodder to begin with - big weapons that don't cause a billion dollars to build, a military beaurocrat's wetdream - and as for the PM, like many world leaders in such matter, was probably left in the dark. 'Plausible deniability' and all that.Let's assume that there was no doctor-patient violation concerning Madison Jeffries knowing what doctors' said about Bochs' condition [AF# 46, page 19, panel 1]. Why would the doctors tell another patient about Bochs' mental problems but not Hudson, The Minister of Defense, or the Prime Minister? This does not use even "comic book" logic or common sense.
Now THAT I can agree with!Neither overly hating nor overly loving certain creators' rendition of AF will help anyone truly understand what's really happened in the series. Sure, jumble everything up and anything is possible, but it still won't make much sense. That's the difference between the people who were trying to do a decent AF series and the people who were trying to transform it into The Canadian X-Men.
Allan 'HappyCanuck' Crocker
"Hey... Philosophers love wisdom, not mankind."
- Stephen Pastis, Pearls Before Swine
Re: This is part of the reason why I hate AF's "continu
Actually, in AF.1.92 (I think, as I don't have the necessary energy to jump up and check the actual issue -...but does anyone know why Marrina's was in her necklace?? was there any reason why she COULDN'T have it implanted??
Although she looked human, she is an alien. Do you know enough about her alien physiology to be nearly 100% sure that the operation would be a success? G/A-F
As I said, it was in AF.1.92 ("Compromising Positions", written by Fabian Nicieza, Art by Dan Reed and Richard Bennett) - I broke down and walked the five feet to my bookshelf :P. Chasen wanted to implant a 'fail-safe' mechanism in the various flights so that they could be 'programmed' exactly as Dept. H wanted them to be. Mac found out, caused a riot (which thus ended Chasen's career as liason with Alpha - a story I'd like to see resolved, I doubt he'd be THAT ready tgo out.), and Clarke (who's ALWAYS respectable, naturallySasquatch doesn't have one currently since he's not in his original body and Northstar had his removed much later)...I seem to recall (I could be wrong) it was indicated in a later story that the implant could be used to "control" members of AF, if necessary....but I'm not sure who wrote that story and what issue it appeared in.
Oh and Sasquatch would probably have the chip, since, according to the story, everyone had it, including Snowbird and Shaman - tho I'm not sure if the 'metamorph' failsafe would be in effect (many metamorphs, ie: Mystique, can get foreign bodies out of theirs by shifting their molecules around).
Actually, Byrne said that Department H - not necessarily Alpha, mind - was top secret in AF.1.1. [But you said Dept. H and Alpha Flight; moreover, Dept. H/Alpha Flight had a big public meeting with PM Mulroney (sp) in the 90's]The assertion that AF was originally intended to be a black-ops group is at the heart of this. If it was, then examples should/could be provided to support this assertion, and somebody should be able to do this.
This actually opens itself to an interesting question, tho: how the hell does anyone wearing what amounts to a stylised Canadian flag do ANYTHING 'covert'?? it's not like our flag makes the best of camoflague! I mean, if you wanted to send a covert agent into one of the more paranoid countries on the planet, why the hell would you dress him up in red and white?? [Could it be that somebody in Dept. H was trying to set him up? Naw, that's crazy.]Weapon Alpha's first mission was across the border into the U.S., a necessarily covert mission because no government would want to take responsibility for infiltrating another country to retrieve property grafted to a human being. If Hudson was spotted or detained, the Canadian government would probably deny any involvement in the whole thing, leaving Hudson to take the fall by himself.
as true as that last line may be, it's not just them that could be considered a 'liability' [you did not say liability initially; you said criminal/criminally "unstable" (I said "criminally insane")]. Jeanne-Marie is a multiple personality - one which possessed, at first release, a borderline schizophrenic quality, the other who tried to kill herself several times; [Logan brought her to Hudson] Walter, a brilliant biophysist who possesses a VERY strong competitive streak as well as an obstinance to prove himself right. I mean this is a man who WILLINGLY subjected himself to VERY hazardous radiation in order to reproduce an accident that produced a rage-filled behemoth-monster, instead opening himself to one of the GREAT BEASTS THEMSELVES. There's no way that could have gone good [I agree; does this dubious scientific experiment make him a criminal/criminally "unstable"/"insane"?];Snowbird, who's NEVER hidden the fact that she's using Alpha Flight as means to an end to 'win the war' against the Great Beasts [this is not true; fighting the X-Men had nothing to do with winning the war against the Great Beasts; fighting Egg-Head and Porcupine had nothing to do with winning the war against the Great Beasts; fighting Omega Flight had nothing to do with winning the war against the Great Beasts; Snowbird only used her power to compel on Northstar]; Marrina's an alien, something the government can't understand, let alone begin to believe they could control, so in their eyes, is a HUGE liability; and Michael's a mystic. from their point of view, what's to prevent him from snapping and magically taking out a small city with his 'spirits'? See, it's not just the known criminals you have to worry about - in fact, there the only RELIABLE ones on the team, since you KNOW what they might be willing to do, but the ones WITHOUT the record! [The most glaring fault in this argument: Bedlam. Snowbird is dedicated to protecting the Earthly realm; Northstar was dedicated to looking out for Aurora; Puck is dedicated to being a member of Alpha Flight; Walter likes challenges big enough for Sasquatch; Shaman, everybody should be afraid of a former surgeon/mystic.]It was also asserted that the Canadian government intentionally, deliberately actively however you want to put it recruits criminals, the criminally insane to be part of Dept. H/Alpha Flight/"super-heroes" and that original members of Alpha Flight had such questionable characteristics that they could easily be lumped into the criminal/criminally insane category. I know that AF is composed of complex people, that's how it became my favorite group. But Jean-Paul and Judd are the only ones with criminal pasts.
Mac prolly DID know [that's not what AFV1# 12 says---unless James was so scared he just made it up], but in that regard he seems to be a bit of bleeding heart to the pathologically malaligned [James must either be naive or dense]. The Minister of Defense probably thought it was a good idea, since in his mind these people were mostly cannonfodder to begin with - big weapons that don't cause a billion dollars to build [the adamantium put into Logan cost the Canadian government so much that they sent Hudson into the U.S. to get Wolverine back], a military beaurocrat's wetdream - and as for the PM, like many world leaders in such matter, was probably left in the dark. 'Plausible deniability' and all that.Let's assume that there was no doctor-patient violation concerning Madison Jeffries knowing what doctors' said about Bochs' condition [AF# 46, page 19, panel 1]. Why would the doctors tell another patient about Bochs' mental problems but not Hudson, The Minister of Defense, or the Prime Minister? This does not use even "comic book" logic or common sense.
Reporter: "Dr. Hudson, is it true that taxpayer money has been spent to
create Convicted-Killer Man?"
Dr. Hudson: "No comment."
Reporter: "Mr. Defense Minister, did you know that Dept. H is sitting on a nuclear power plant?"
Defense Minister: "No comment."
Reporter: "Will you have better control over Gobyln, Nemesis, and WildChild than you do over Vindicator, Sasquatch, and Snowbird?"
DM: "I said, 'No comment.' "
Reporter: "Mr. Prime Minister, how does capturing, branding, and brainwashing children like Ghost Girl help you in your campaign for reelection?"
PM: "No comment."Now THAT I can agree with!Neither overly hating nor overly loving certain creators' rendition of AF will help anyone truly understand what's really happened in the series. Sure, jumble everything up and anything is possible, but it still won't make much sense. That's the difference between the people who were trying to do a decent AF series and the people who were trying to transform it into The Canadian X-Men.
Once upon a time, they exploded from the pages of The X-Men. For a moment, they were "Canada's answer to The Avengers."
They were ALPHA FLIGHT....
...once upon a time.
I still believe that Snowbird did not have an implant(I could be wrong)...I'll have to reread my Byrne AF to be sure, but I think it was explained there.
I'm not as sure about Shaman.
I also believe that Roger Bochs was unaffected by the "Influencer" because he held no malice toward Mac or AF(that too was explained in Byrne's run). Jaxon and Courtney may have found their Omega Flight recruits by tracing the implants in those members, But they may have also found them via Roxxon's resources.
Dana
ALPHA FLIGHT IS RESURRECTED, LONG LIVE ALPHA FLIGHT!
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