Your AF "What If??"

[Scarlettspiderg]

Hey I liked the wax dummies...in fact...

"What If...The Master had fullpowered wax versions of Marvels Heroes Doing His Bidding"

Imagine the wax characters from V3 7-8 but being controlled by someone like The Master!

[Garry/Al-Fan]

The characters chosen do matter.
That has been proven by the last two rosters. With only
one or two originals the title is doomed for failure.
But more importantly I think the stories matter.
No one will argue that when Alpha Flight was at it's
height the stories were solid, characterization was solid,
and art was solid. Now move forward to the end of V1,
all of V2, and all of V3. Do you honestly remember the details
of these stories and character like you remember early Alpha Flight?
Not a chance. The stories aren't character driven anymore.
They've been hijacked by writers who want to put their
product on paper. ...ridiculous stories about wax dummies,
or poor art... There have been good stories since Byrne....
but they were sporadic and only enough to sustain the book.
There hasn't been a solid base for the last two incarnations.
That has to be built first. Good writing can make a marginal
character worth reading. Look at what Tieri did with Jefferies,
Wildchild, and Aurora. They were core characters in his book
that did have success. [Somehow I'll have to track these down.
What series is this? clueless Al-Fan] You don't see those names
show up on most folks Alpha Flight rosters nowadays. So, they aren't
the most popular Alphans, yet they have seen success and probably
have their own new fans now. So pick the roster you want. I think
it has to include a majority of originals on the core team to
keep the old timers around this time. [true for this old-timer]
Throw in a couple newbies if needed, but make sure the stories are gripping. [yes, please]
A 6 story arc about taking a carton of eggs into space doesn't exactly
thrill the average reader. Follow that up with wax dummies and you're
destined for cancellation [I agree. Even though I liked the Plodex plot,
it was a bit too long] every time. Too bad to, because issues 9 and 10
seemed to be turning on the right course....

I wish I had written that.

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.
If Delphine Courtney could be re-configured from a woman to a man,
then somebody should be able to put her/him/it back together again
(THE MASTER, for one, comes to my mind).

[Legerd]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

Personally, Flashback's death in V1 was the most original, creative and creepy one I've ever seen. Edgar Allan Poe could not have come up with a worse fate, than knowing at some point in your future you will be summoned into the past to die. No wonder Flashy went bonkers. A little while after that, we learn he has disappeared from his prison cell, never to be seen again (until V3 ). That was supposed to be the future self that died, which would have been a nice wrap up for the character. Now, however, we're left to wonder how he got out of jail, who helped him, why, and what has he been up to all this time? Wow, retconned loose ends! SL should have left it alone; FB's fate in V1 was a nice bit of writing.

If Delphine Courtney could be re-configured from a woman to a man,
then somebody should be able to put her/him/it back together again
(THE MASTER, for one, comes to my mind).

Delphine was a robot and therefore it was no big deal to alter its appearance. However, if there was anyone who could bring FB back from the dead, it would be the Master... of course someone would need to bring him back from the dead first.

PS: It was the Weapon X series with Aurora, Jefferies and Wild Child.

[Barnacle13]

New characters that few care about...

I was overly hasty when I said it was only the stories that matter. I don't believe that at all. Characterization matters a great deal to me.

I suggest though that if people don't care about the characters, it's not so much because they're new, but because they're not written very well or engagingly.

For the record, I love the original team and am tired of their getting bumped out of their own book for newbies. I want to read a book about the original characters too. I just don't think that's the only formula for a successful Alpha Flight comic.

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well. It would become stagnant and folks would drop it. You have to bring new characters into the fold to be successful. Still starting with 5 out of 7 unrecognizeable characters though doesn't start you on a good foot. If you can develop them quickly you might be able to pull it off, but it was issue 10 before we got to even see some of the powers the characters possessed this go around. I'm not likely to buy a book about a bartender in a thong for long. I'll stand by my statement that any reboot of Alpha Flight should consist of 4 or 5 original Alphans (including Sasquatch and Puck). Throw in a couple of the newer characters and allow them to develop slowly around the already established characters. Slowly they'll build a following, just like Talisman did. But had they dropped Shaman on say issue 20 and in issue 21 Talisman shows up and say "I'm the new mystic" everyone would have hated her. I think Marvel is to blame for this. They aren't willing to let a character develop any longer. They want them to be a flash in the pan success, so they can benefit now. They don't seem too focused on the future. Even in their X- and Spider titles you see this with retconning and alternate universes and whatnot. I'm sure that your dad's or grandpa's or older brother's Spiderman is just as captivating if not moreso than what's being pushed today. He has a history, supporting cast, etc. which is all very interesting and intertwined. There's something to be said for looking intothe past as well as for looking to the future.

[Michael May]

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well.

That's not exactly what I'm saying though. I don't think the book succeeds or fails on the specific characters featured in it. Success depends on how well those characters are written, regardless of which ones they are. There's no formula or ratio of old:new characters that's going to guarantee a successful book; it all comes back to the quality of the writing and art.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

Personally, Flashback's death in V1 was the... creepy one I've ever seen. Edgar Allan Poe could not have come up with a worse fate, than knowing at some point in your future you will be summoned into the past to die. No wonder Flashy went bonkers. [I agree, but...] A little while after that, we learn he has disappeared from his prison cell, never to be seen again (until V3 ). That was supposed to be the future self that died, which would have been a nice wrap up for the character. Now, however, we're left to wonder how he got out of jail, who helped him, why, and what has he been up to all this time? Wow, retconned loose ends! ] [There are so many loose ends that need to be "fixed," "retconned," or "corrected" in just the comics I have, that it's not even funny. SL's Flashback sequence made more sense to me (ethical and legal dilemma for AF to help him) than the explanation of how PUCK survived his dunking during the 1st Pestilence sequence. How hard would it have been to state (caption, dialog, somewhere), that in exchange for teaching Elizabeth how to fight, she taught Judd how to swim?]. (*,) SL should have left it alone; FB's fate in V1 was a nice bit of writing. [I missed something, again?]


[Delphine was a robot and therefore it was no big deal to alter its appearance. [...why would a robot get that scared if it was easy to fix? I'm assuming Courtney knew he/she/it was easy to repair/alter.] However, if there was anyone who could bring FB back from the dead, it would be the Master... [I was referring to THE MASTER (utilizing his metal manipulation abilities) reconstructing the robotic Delphine Courtney] of course someone would need to bring him back from the dead first. [THE MASTER, blinded, (and I just read elsewhere on the internet, injected with enzyme from SCRAMBLE; geez, THE MASTER of all people couldn't find anybody better than that to inject himself with?), and dead? That just doesn't seem right to me. GRJ]

PS: It was the Weapon X series with Aurora, Jefferies and Wild Child. [Thanks.]

[kozzi24]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

There's a lot of unexplored terriroty with Flashback. I question how he knows the alternates are future selves...did they ever talk? Did they ever appear aged when he saw them?
How far ahead did the dopplegangers come from?

But this is also true of the core team: there's so much that hasn't been done with them. A story is what happens to a character, and the richness of the original Alphas could provide credible, interesting stories for YEARS without new characters.

[Barnacle13]

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well.

That's not exactly what I'm saying though. I don't think the book succeeds or fails on the specific characters featured in it. Success depends on how well those characters are written, regardless of which ones they are. There's no formula or ratio of old:new characters that's going to guarantee a successful book; it all comes back to the quality of the writing and art.

I totally agree with you on this. I don't think an all originals cast will appeal to some of the newer readers though. Some of the folks who jumped on board because of V2 or V3 would be turned off if they weren't thrown at least a small bone to intice them. If Alpha is to return to its former glory as a top seller, I think you have to recapture the "old" audience by giving them what they loved (characters, characterization, stories, art, unique Canadian flavour {even spelled it to appeal to my Northern friends}, etc.), but you shouldn't leave out the newer readers who love Puck II, MML, Jr., Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl, etc. I think some of the elements and characters from V2 and V3 need to be there also, otherwise you're leaving continuity to the wolves again, which is really what has killed Alpha Flight over the years. I think a V4 has to address some of the dangling threads and glaring continuity glitches in order to be successful. Either that or scrap everything from the past and start with a completely different concept that has not been seen in comics before. Of course that alienates everyone and thus has to build a new following on merit alone. Anyway, without good stories that give nods to the past as well as look to the future of AF, any future reboot is gonna fail. So give us great art, great characters, and great stories.

[kozzi24]

Most of the Volume 2 glitches have been dealt with, at least by being glazed over, in the subsequent Wolverine appearances. There's dangling threads, but people don't seem to be clamoring for the return of Flex and Lilli and Ghost Girl and Manbot en masse.

I will stick to my original solution for Volume 3 because I haven't heard a better one: it's all a dream of Sasquatch's. The originals never went to space, there are no alternate versions running around, the ill-defined characters don't exist, save perhaps for Mapleleaf, who Walt would have heard of during Lou's school circuits. Use characterization to rationalize the dream/s, in serveral ways: Walt's guilt that the original Alpha has not been able to locate Aurora, Walt's belief that HE should be leading the team...and on that theory, even his subconscious dream state tells him that maybe he isn't really qualified to lead the team in the last panel of the series: when he is experimenting on himself.

As the Volume 3 team appeared NOWHERE except for Volume 3, and interacted with no other comtemporary Marvel characters, there is nothing to make the all-a-dream solution to Volume 3 unfeasible

[DelBubs]

RETCON ALERT II: Scott Lobdell should be thanked for saving
FLASHBACK, since his death was a bit forced to begin with, IMO.

There's a lot of unexplored terriroty with Flashback. I question how he knows the alternates are future selves...did they ever talk? Did they ever appear aged when he saw them?
How far ahead did the dopplegangers come from?

But this is also true of the core team: there's so much that hasn't been done with them. A story is what happens to a character, and the richness of the original Alphas could provide credible, interesting stories for YEARS without new characters.

One aspect of Flashback that was never fully explored was why his dopplegangers were silent and in the reverse/negative version uniform. I often wondered if these dopplegangers could use the same power. A silent future Flashback also pulling in future versions. The more I think about it, the more I want him to survive so he can be investigated further.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

I agree a book with just the originals is doomed for failure as well.

....I don't think the book succeeds or fails on the specific characters featured in it. Success depends on how well those characters are written, regardless of which ones they are. There's no formula or ratio of old:new characters that's going to guarantee a successful book; it all comes back to the quality of the writing and art.

....I don't think an all originals cast will appeal to some of the newer readers though. Some of the folks who jumped on board because of V2 or V3 would be turned off if they weren't thrown at least a small bone to intice them. If Alpha is to return to its former glory as a top seller, I think you have to recapture the "old" audience by giving them what they loved (characters, characterization, stories, art, unique Canadian flavour {even spelled it to appeal to my Northern friends}, etc.), but you shouldn't leave out the newer readers who love Puck II, MML, Jr., Flex, Radius, Ghost Girl, etc. I think some of the elements and characters from V2 and V3 need to be there also, otherwise you're leaving continuity to the wolves again, which is really what has killed Alpha Flight over the years. I think a V4 has to address some of the dangling threads and glaring continuity glitches in order to be successful. Either that or scrap everything from the past and....that alienates everyone and thus has to build a new following on merit alone. Anyway, without good stories that give nods to the past as well as look to the future of AF, any future reboot is gonna fail. So give us great art, great characters, and great stories.

The only thing I can think of for WHITMAN KNAPP: head doctor of the asylum that Walt/Sasquatch cleared land for back in vol. 1, # 20 (relying on memory); Puck knew of THE MASTER in V1#16 even though he had been eviscerated in V1# 2 and not a part of that first story-arc, so I assume somebody would have briefed Shaman on KNAPP's connection to SCRAMBLE and the NEW LIFE clinic. Choosing Knapp as a lab-partner wouldn't seem like a wise decision for someone like Shaman [IMO].

Jaxon's OMEGA FLIGHT would be a little tougher and not so quick to fold; they'd never get to be Canada's protectors if they were punks (excuse my language, but it describes what has been done to some of the characters/characterizations [Courtney and Diablo come immediately to mind]).

THE ZODIAC is a definite keeper from V2. [Hope I didn't miss anything important regarding them]

[Legerd]

[I agree, but...] A little while after that, we learn he has disappeared from his prison cell, never to be seen again (until V3 ). That was supposed to be the future self that died, which would have been a nice wrap up for the character. Now, however, we're left to wonder how he got out of jail, who helped him, why, and what has he been up to all this time? Wow, retconned loose ends! ] [There are so many loose ends that need to be "fixed," "retconned," or "corrected" in just the comics I have, that it's not even funny. SL's Flashback sequence made more sense to me (ethical and legal dilemma for AF to help him) than the explanation of how PUCK survived his dunking during the 1st Pestilence sequence. How hard would it have been to state (caption, dialog, somewhere), that in exchange for teaching Elizabeth how to fight, she taught Judd how to swim?]. (*,) SL should have left it alone; FB's fate in V1 was a nice bit of writing. [I missed something, again?]

Your right that ethical/legal dilemmas can make for excellent storylines. However, in this case the retconning of the past damaged the team's overall continuity and history more than it helped to make a good story, IMO.

Delphine was a robot and therefore it was no big deal to alter its appearance. [...why would a robot get that scared if it was easy to fix? I'm assuming Courtney knew he/she/it was easy to repair/alter.]

To repair damage is one thing, but if you remember Jefferies shredded the robot's body entirely! He left nothing of it's original form, in fact what did remain was turned into a new battlesuit (as revealed in AF #32) for Heather. If someone could end my existence with no more than a thought I would be scared of them too. And since Delphine had been working for Jerry Jaxxon before it would have known about Madison's powers, which is why it reacted with fear when he showed up.

However, if there was anyone who could bring FB back from the dead, it would be the Master... [I was referring to THE MASTER (utilizing his metal manipulation abilities) reconstructing the robotic Delphine Courtney]

Delphine wasn't working for the Master and therefore wouldn't have been able to depend on his help for repair.

[Garry/Al-Fan]

[quote="Legerd
...Delphine wasn't working for the Master and therefore wouldn't have been able to depend on his help for repair.[/quote]

All good points. Heather donning a suit made out of an enemy's remains is much less damaging to AF continuity and makes more sense than Flashback being saved through time-travel. I had assumed Alpha Flight continuity needed fixing. Maybe it doesn't, and all versions can somehow be explained, which will be very good news.

James plugged his cybernetic helmet into the plodex ship while The Master was still controlling it back in V1# 4. The Master created an entire fish-ship while he was trapped. His metal manipulation powers must have been considerable.

[Legerd]

What if...

1. Dr. Twoyoungmen had saved his wife?

2. The Great Beasts had been Tribbles?

3. Walter had succeeded with his gamma radiation experiment?

4. Smart Alec had invented the Guardian suit?

5. Stan Lee created Alpha Flight?

6. Mac had been a mutant?

7. Scramble had been a founding member of AF?

8. The Master had been a good guy?

9. Mac and Heather had found Sabertooth instead of Wolverine?

10. Alpha Flight had been formed during WW2 to stop the nazis from freeing the Great Beasts?

[Garry/Al-Fan]

With his electromagnetic suit messed up thanks to Aurora and Northstar, James would be vulnerable, and as the "titular" leader, he would be able to approach Marrina more believably than Puck. If the attack isn't fatal, James' hospitalization and recuperation would leave the leadership reigns falling to Shaman, with Walt and Judd upset about that.

Jerry Jaxon and company have to come back to Canada to exact his revenge, kidnapping key friends of AF and relying on the different internal divisions to cause ALPHA FLIGHT's implosion right before their confrontation with OMEGA FLIGHT. Not fully recovered, James comes to AF's rescue, has throwdown with Jaxon/Box, both die, both bodies recovered, and Shaman/AF shown removing the influencers from OF and debating whether to cart OF off to jail.

[After the funerals for James and Jerry] Shaman, Walt, Puck, and Heather make it clear that Alpha Flight works best as an independent group without government interference, and Gary Cody seems to accept that.

The bureaucrats at Dept. H decide that Canada needs protectors who are under governmental control and go looking (or making) them while AF is off on its own.