AF #12 solicit + Cancellation notice

[DelBubs]

Hiya Siskods, welcome. While I can identify with most of what your saying, at the end of the day Marvel should maybe pre-empt comics going bye-bye by actually promoting the book in question. If as can be gleaned from Scotts message AF has been down for cancellation for a few months, then maybe pushing it a bit more or changing the direction could have helped. Marvel pushes it mainstream titles and lets the second stringers die. AF vol 3 didn't appeal to everyone, but with a little bit of effort it could have appealed to more.

[Ben]

That's just it, the cancellation was premature! Yes, I can understand ending a book that has low sales, but you would think they would at least try and find out WHY those sales were low, and if they could have been improved. This was not really AF vol.3, this was All New, All Different Alpha Flight, volume 1. Marvel did no promotion, no guest appearances, no adds, no pinups, no mentions in other titles, and they didn't even bloodywell offer it as a subscription. They put it on the shelves and expect people to find it. Alpha Flight has a large fanbase that would not necesarily be buying other books, and would have no reason of going into the comic shop to see it was there. That being said, after the fact when the sales were low, rather than altering the direction of the book to please more fans, or changing writers (which I personally didn't want to see happen, but would have rathered that then the end of the book); they just threw it away. "Well that didn't work".

I'm ranting now, and am going to go back to working on the Fight For The Flight

P.S. Welcome siskods9! Try not to sit on any of the midgets in the cupboard.

Ben

[Cliff]

Sheesh...I feel bad now and I didnt' even do anything.

Unfortunately, this doesn't come as much of a surprise as the title re-launch wasn't taken seriouly from the get go. Turning AF into a jokey book was a bad idea to start with and Lobdell obviously gave an honest assessment when he said that AF was "going to get the treatment he thought they deserved." He felt they needed to be driven into the ground and lined up for cancelation with other lame Marvel titles. He definitely accomplished that.

I'm reading Vol2 for the first time having picked up all the back issues since joining this forum and it's 10 times better than Vol3. Knowing that a TPB is due out soon comprising Vol2 storyline I can only hope that Vol3 was a meek attempt to get AF some "face time", following that up with the TPB and then a proper re-launch around February once recognition is back. I mean, Marvel has to know they have us regulars, so there's a thousand copies right there (lol).

I guess that's really the question: How do you change the team or the book for what ammounts to a predominantly American audience?

I'll tell ya this, AF deserves much better than what Marvel and Lobdell have left us with....much better.

[DelBubs]

I'm reading Vol2 for the first time having picked up all the back issues since joining this forum and it's 10 times better than Vol3. Knowing that a TPB is due out soon comprising Vol2 storyline I can only hope that Vol3 was a meek attempt to get AF some "face time", following that up with the TPB and then a proper re-launch around February once recognition is back. I mean, Marvel has to know they have us regulars, so there's a thousand copies right there (lol).

I guess that's really the question: How do you change the team or the book for what ammounts to a predominantly American audience?

I'll tell ya this, AF deserves much better than what Marvel and Lobdell have left us with....much better.

I gotta disagree about vol 2 being better than vol 3, but on all your other points I'll agree with. To make AF appealing enough to become a viable proposition, then I think any writer is gonna have to go back to what Byrne did. AF at that time was a top three book and was at it's peak. Comics tend to go tits up when writers try to stamp their own mark on an established book. I'm not sugesting getting Byrne back on the book (god forbid), but the originals with strong non comedic stories would be a start.

[maniac mike]

Hey everybody, Rich Johnston who does his weekly "Lying In The Gutters" column over at comicbookresources has the e-mail Scott Lobdell sent to Ben today.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

MM

[DMK]

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think the book's cancellation is premature. Here's Paul O'Brien's sales figures for Alpha Flight v3:

102. ALPHA FLIGHT
Mar Alpha Flight #1 - 42,586
Apr Alpha Flight #2 - 36,551 (-14.2%)
May Alpha Flight #3 - 32,684 (-10.6%)
Jun Alpha Flight #4 - 29,384 (-10.1%)
Jul Alpha Flight #5 - 26,879 ( -8.5%)
Aug Alpha Flight #6 - 25,004 ( -7.0%)
Sep Alpha Flight #7 - 23,280 ( -6.9%)
Oct Alpha Flight #8 - 21,956 ( -5.7%)
6 mnth (-39.9%)

Simply put, the book is hemmoraghing readers, with no hope in sight. It's probably already at the point where it is unprofitable.

Let's compare to She-Hulk, which is getting a relaunch and a publicity push next year:

91. SHE-HULK
Mar She-Hulk #1 - 34,499
Apr She-Hulk #2 - 30,779 (-10.8%)
May She-Hulk #3 - 29,662 ( -3.6%)
Jun She-Hulk #4 - 27,648 ( -6.8%)
Jul She-Hulk #5 - 25,788 ( -6.7%)
Aug She-Hulk #6 - 24,751 ( -4.0%)
Sep She-Hulk #7 - 25,303 ( +2.2%)
Oct She-Hulk #8 - 24,929 ( -1.5%)
6 mnth (-19.0%)

While She-Hulk started out at considerably lower numbers than Alpha, its loss rate per issue has been considerably lower, and it even experienced a sales increase with #7. It's easy to see why Marvel wants to give it a push... it's stabilized a lot more than Alpha Flight, and has already bottomed out at a higher rate than Alpha has. Going by the sales trends Alpha hasn't bottomed out yet.

I'm going to miss the book though. I really enjoyed Sasquatch, MML Jr. and Centennial, and I think I could have grown to like Puck II. Yukon Jack didn't do anything for me and neither did Scott's take on Nemesis.

The only bright side is that I've been looking to cut some books to save money, and this is one "slot" I won't have to actively cut. Marvel's done it for me. (Not that I ever would have cut Alpha if it was still being published.)

[Ben]

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think the book's cancellation is premature. Here's Paul O'Brien's sales figures for Alpha Flight v3:

I think that any cancellation is premature if the publisher hasn't done a thing to promote and publisize the title. You're right, the sales figures sucked, but how were people to know it was out there? It was a very different book, so the normal lot of X-heads that would have tried it for a few issues didn't stay, but new readers who would enjoy that kind of thing, or classic AF fans that don't commonly visit a comic shop or news site wouldn't know it's out there.

Ben

[DelBubs]

Just a question for ya Ben, if that group of characters and that type of story had appeared in a comic without AF on the cover, would you have still been here discussing it? I couldn't honestly swear to being able to say yes. Many classic AF fans are still looking for just that 'Classic AF'. The nearest we have got to that recently was in Wolvie #171-172 (??)

If AF are ever going to have a viable series that the originals would seem the way to go. Oh and of course a little bit of support from Marvel

Duran Duran have been on the scene for 20+ years, but it has only been the return to the original line-up and music format that gave them a recent chart success.

[Ben]

Just a question for ya Ben, if that group of characters and that type of story had appeared in a comic without AF on the cover, would you have still been here discussing it? I couldn't honestly swear to being able to say yes. Many classic AF fans are still looking for just that 'Classic AF'. The nearest we have got to that recently was in Wolvie #171-172 (??)

If AF are ever going to have a viable series that the originals would seem the way to go. Oh and of course a little bit of support from Marvel

Duran Duran have been on the scene for 20+ years, but it has only been the return to the original line-up and music format that gave them a recent chart success.

I probably wouldn't have known about it, as it wouldln't have been promoted. had i seen promotion for it, it probably would have caught my attention. No, I probably wouldn't be as attached to it, or defending it as vehemently, but would have enjoyed it if something had caught my attention enough to try it out.

And I enjoy when bands try new things, sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't

Ben

[Mokole]

But does anyone think X-Men would do so well if Rogue, Gambit, Wolverine et al got ignored, it got cut down to one book emphasizing humour, and the only characters were Xavier, twice dead Grey, Cyclops, Iceman, Beast, and Angel??

Say they did that with Ultimate X-Men. First six issues is a 'meet the team spiel' with a downbeat plot about fighting Kree that wind up being in eggs, next two they sort of fight a goofy enemy (say Mr. Impossible), then they go on a time travel quest to prevent the death of... Mesmero. All in all they spend $0 on promoting the book.

Think that would top the charts by #9?

Basically that's what we seem to be dealing with on AF these days. People would not buy it as much without their 'essential x-men' and would drop it over time, only fangirls would make it profitable. No point in worrying about money not spent, says Quesada. But you know sooner or later they'd drop this failed x-men and replace it with more interesting characters and plots.

Go back to Byrne AF if they must but don't do Byrne stories, more Hudnall and Furman action and directiveness, plus somebody beyonf BYrne AF must be included.

[Ben]

Hey everybody, Rich Johnston who does his weekly "Lying In The Gutters" column over at comicbookresources has the e-mail Scott Lobdell sent to Ben today.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=13

MM

This is why the forum has been hit so heavy today. Just this thread got about 2500 hits today, and the forum has never had so many visitors at once. On that note, I would like to welcome all new members that found thier way here through such means

Ben

[DelBubs]

Ben : I enjoy when new things are tried, but nowadays, like AF, Duran Duran has more of a cult following than a mainstream one. If you alienate the main core of readers/listeners then sales are going to plummet. Marvel didn't promote the book so new readers didn't come aboard, old readers walked because they didn't get what they expected. Die-Hards (and I include myself in that) continue to support the series cos some form of AF is better than non at all.

Mokole : AF needs Heather, Shaman, Sas, Puck, Snowbird and a mixture of others from vol 2 and vol 3. Mac has had his day, Maddy Jeffries, Wildchild and to some degree Aurora are all as mad as march hares and Northstar is tainted by the X.

[Cliff]

Ben : I enjoy when new things are tried, but nowadays, like AF, Duran Duran has more of a cult following than a mainstream one. If you alienate the main core of readers/listeners then sales are going to plummet. Marvel didn't promote the book so new readers didn't come aboard, old readers walked because they didn't get what they expected. Die-Hards (and I include myself in that) continue to support the series cos some form of AF is better than non at all.

Dead on...well said.

Mokole : AF needs Heather, Shaman, Sas, Puck, Snowbird and a mixture of others from vol 2 and vol 3. Mac has had his day, Maddy Jeffries, Wildchild and to some degree Aurora are all as mad as march hares and Northstar is tainted by the X.

Well, I don't know about that. Shaman and Sasquatch are probably necessary for sure and maybe Heather and Puck and Snowbird for good measure, but I think they could just be in a support role rather than main-line characters. The thing is, I'm not sure Alph Flight has been established yet. Now bear with me for two seconds, but other than the Byrne issues, this team has been based on one conspiracy or brainwashing attempt after another from the beginning and the only thing that comes close to hitting near the center of the target as far as core theme is the mysticism element (Shaman, Talisman, Snowbird and Sas). However, there's never been a "mission" for poor AF and so they always play like a bickering, cut rate Avengers to those readers less apt to really get into the stories.

From my point of view they are more like the Fantastic Four and should be handled in that style - like a family, brought together by beuraucracy but staying together because of their friendships and personal relationships that run more deeply. I'm beginning to see that I'm in the minority around here too, but I gotta say that the only writer to have come nearest to that feel and what I expect from AF each time I pick up an issue is the Byrne model. I say bring him back to do, say , ten issues and get some kind of ball rolling, then hand it off to some brand new up and comer with good story telling chops.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Ben, The sad thing is....that about 42,000+ readers DID know AF was out there....and half of those readers dropped it from issues one to eight. BTW....nobody should be blaming those readers for dropping the series, if they did not like it. Making suggestions that fans buy multiple copies to help sales and pass them out to friends and do advertising(that Marvel should be doing....which I found outrageous, that Marvel would suggest fans do this), is also REALLY unfair, especially if some or more of those fans aren't enjoying the book themselves.

The first story arc(IMO) was the biggest wound(if you will) to the book's sales. It began bleeding to death during the arc(which is a very bad sign)...an arc which was(IMO again) too long and didn't have enough meat to it. I personally was left wanting at issue six and felt cheated. As I said before....I'm paying 3 dollars for this book, I'd like more substance to what I'm reading. To me, it just seemed mostly filler....not what I want to read in a 3 dollar comic.

I felt very alienated as an old school AF fan(for a second time...ugh....Example: Vol 2), as many other older AF fans may have been(again...half the readers....gone?)....The team that I grew up on was out of the picture for several issues, then when they Do appear, they are shipped off to outerspace(not to mention, depicted as not able to handle themselves against a ship they destroyed already once....not how I want to remember my favorite AFers).

Remember, I was one of the fans the book almost lost, but I decided to stick with it....Because I was intrigued by the upcoming storyline(involving Flashback and seeing the past AF teams via timetravel). Those are the ONLY reasons I stayed with the book(I find that sad as well).

I WILL write Marvel(Quesada, etc..) and give them some constructive criticism, because I truly believe they need it. Come on!....two failed relaunches that shoved the older characters aside, intro'ed a slew of newbies(who were too slowly/badly developed, both books had badly thought-out premises(Also IMO), slapped the AF name on them and called it good....Um....Hello?!). There IS a pattern here and I really don't think they're paying attention.

Dana

[Ben]

Ben, The sad thing is....that about 42,000+ readers DID know AF was out there....and half of those readers dropped it from issues one to eight. BTW....nobody should be blaming those readers for dropping the series, if they did not like it.

No, I don't blame the readers for not liking it, but I do blame the overal inustry for making comic readers so fickle these days. Where once fans would have stuck it out during a spell they didn't like, now they just drop it. Not, it's not thier fault, books are expensive, and they are innondated with new titles on a regular basis, rather than having the publisher work on making existing ones work. The thing with those 42000 readers, they were probably only half made up of existing af fans. Lots of people who know about, and read some AF, but there is a world of fans out there that never would have heard about it. In running my site, you have no idea how often I get email to the effect of "wow I had no idea there was a new AF series".


Ben