You Gotta Be Kidding Me : Or Are We Kidding Ourselves ?

[Mokole]

A post on Usenet made sense.

Fanboys and Fangirls pick up Emma Frost, Mystique, and Jubilee et al automatically just because they use x-men characters. But it was pointed out that while those first two books started out with good readership and then fell, similar x-books like Jubilee and Madrox won't get the same break. Fanboys and fangirls will buy anything with an X-character in it but most readers automatically put anything x on their pull lists, read them, then drop books like Mystique. Those readers are jaded and won't put the next swack of x-individuals on their pull list automatically, so Gambit et al are doing worse than expected. Thing is, even fanboys/girls have only so much money and they won't keep buying x-books for no reason unless their morons or completists.

Alpha Flight, on the other hand, brings in totally new readers to Marvel, around 5000-10000 at least. And books like Alpha Flight don't just take money from the same x-pie, they bring in new money, like Marvel Age books are trying to do. So to Marvel 10000 AF books sold is like 18000+ Nightcrawler books sold because Alpha Flight fans may not have bought Marvel before or anything Marvel but AF now. Quesada doesn't want those fans to leave Marvel so he wants to keep books like EXiles and Alpha Flight on the permanent list. I think Invaders was to be like that but unlike AF and EXiles I think Marvel overestimated its appeal to non-Marvel comic buyers.

[Phil]

I think that's pretty much claptrap.

a) madrox is a 5 issue limited series solicited as such from the start.
It's in the Marvel Knights line which makes it grittier and not for children.
It's written by fan favourite Peter David.
It guest stars String Guy and Wolfsbane, two fan favourite characters.

b) Jubilee is a Marvel Age all ages book, aimed at childen.

Alpha Flight is mainly bought by Alpha Flight fans, x fans and Scott Lobdell fans.
The book is tied into x-continuity.
It's marketed as an x-book.
It was solicited as such.
10000 books is like 10000 books, nothing else.
Sales have to be able to stand up to the costs.
Bottom line.
While fans are important, it has to come down to sales from Marvel's position.
I don't expect Scott to write the book for nothing.
I'm sure Scott doesn't expect to not be paid for his writing.

[Mokole]

When I finally got my order (not the comic, I expect to have that Monday) for AF #8 I asked the guy running the store about that and he said he sells AF to new Marvel buyers, X-fans, and DC-only people mostly. He said very few of his X-Men pullers also pull AF but people who buy Batman and Superman put it on their lists. He figured most of his AF's are sold to general comic readers, then new AF fans who don't buy Marvel otherwise, then X-fans.

[Ben]

When I finally got my order (not the comic, I expect to have that Monday) for AF #8 I asked the guy running the store about that and he said he sells AF to new Marvel buyers, X-fans, and DC-only people mostly. He said very few of his X-Men pullers also pull AF but people who buy Batman and Superman put it on their lists. He figured most of his AF's are sold to general comic readers, then new AF fans who don't buy Marvel otherwise, then X-fans.

The advantage this series has is that it uses the old AF history, but isn't bogged down with it. New readers are able to come in and not feel that they really missed half the story by not reading the other volumes of AF. There are some nice little tributes and references to AF history that only long time fans would get, but doesn't take away from the strory for newbies.

Ben

[Silverarrow]

We all want the book to be great... but it has stank. Almost everything, in each issue so far... and the blame falls completely on the writer. He better get it together, or the book will go down as another cancelled stinky book. I am glad buddy's kids are enjoying it, but most people are not, and only buying it out of loyality. As a comic store owner, people are dropping it. Plain and simple.

[mos_def]

I would have to agree with Silverarrow. The Wolverine writers write Alpha more in style then vol3 does.I buy it out of loyalty but the original team leaving to space drew the line for me.

IMO, Alpha fans were created from the creation of Byrne.His issue one has lasted us with characters throughout the entire series.We grew up with them and we know them.They are Alpha Flight, so them doing stuff that we know isnt Alpha Flight upsets the diehard Alpha Fan(me)

[Le Messor]

Do you actually think Marvel listens to fans? It listens to $ale$, nothing else.

Most Marvel comics these days are dumping the idea of thought balloons, and captions, to make them more movie-ish. They've stopped doing real covers, and replaced them with tight close-ups of single characters, or parts thereof.
Alpha Flight, under Lobdell, still does it the old-fashioned way. To me, this is a good.

I'm trying to think of how I feel about the series so far, but it's impossible. I don't. It's a light read, easy on the eyes and mind, but I have no feelings about it. I forget most of it as soon as it's done.

I'd compare it to Young Justice. In YJ, Peter David took a set of serious-toned characters, only one of which had I ever read before - and combined them into a funny book. He had a bit of fourth-wall humour, and the cartoony art.

Lobdell's trying to do the same here. Okay, I've read -other- Nemesi, but not this one. (If he's trying to tell us they're the same woman, he's a worse writer than I thought.)

Peter David succeeded. I care a lot about YJ, and the characters in it, though I never knew them before. The fouth-wall humour was kept under control, and rarely intruded on the main characters - it was mostly in the captions and side-characters.

Lobdell doesn't succeed. I don't have any feelings about the characters, one way or the other. The series so far has none of the depth or the serious issues David put in so well. So far it's fun, but empty.

Y'know what I'd really, really like to see in an Alpha Flight title?
Alpha Flight.

I got into the series - and comics - for characters I knew and loved, for the good quality of writing on Byrne's (and later Hudnall's, Furman's, and even Lobdell's first) run. I didn't get into it to see those two words on a cover, and I don't think putting them on is enough to make an AF series. Like the hockey example given elsewhere.

- Le Messor
"Because the water is still, you must not think there is no crocodile there."
- Malaysian Proverb

[Ben]

Do you actually think Marvel listens to fans? It listens to $ale$, nothing else.

They may or may not listen to fans as you say, but if enough fans make a statement about what they want to see in a book, it doesn't take a genious to see that giving the fans what they want translates into sales. It seems pretty obvious by comments here and elsewehre; people are dropping the book because: a). The want the Original AF b). They don't like the lighthearted take. If a whole lot of people write to marvel and say what they don't like in the book, and what they do want to see, it wouldn't take a genious at Marvel to see that a more serious AF with more origonal members will translate to sales.

If everyone says "My opinion doesn't matter" and no one bothers to express it, then you just make yourself correct by making you opinion meaningless. If you state your opinion on the book to Marvel, and you opinion is the same as many others, then it will make a difference, because those opinions mean money.

Personally I would love for this series to have good enough sales to keep going, BUT if those sales aren't good enough, I would rather see the book changed to make more fans happy than see it thrown away.

Ben

[Le Messor]

Ben wrote: If a whole lot of people write to marvel and say what they don't like in the book, and what they do want to see, it wouldn't take a genious at Marvel to see that a more serious AF with more origonal members will translate to sales.

You're right. It wouldn't take a genius.

But the people who're ignoring these letters are Management. They're the opposite of genius, the negative of genius, the Diet Coke of Genius.

They are, in a word, stupid.

Haven't you ever had a job?

- Le Messor
"Please don't step in the management."
- Dilbert book title

[Ottawa Renegade]

Lobdell doesn't succeed. I don't have any feelings about the characters, one way or the other. The series so far has none of the depth or the serious issues David put in so well. So far it's fun, but empty.

Y'know what I'd really, really like to see in an Alpha Flight title?
Alpha Flight.

Is there a way for me to just get Messor to write all my posts from now on? It would save me a lot of time and say the same thing, but probably more clearly.

[kozzi24]

Ben wrote:
If everyone says "My opinion doesn't matter" and no one bothers to express it, then you just make yourself correct by making you opinion meaningless. If you state your opinion on the book to Marvel, and you opinion is the same as many others, then it will make a difference, because those opinions mean money.

Bravo, Ben. A good example for the American election as well as expressing your opinion to Marvel. Letters that say I hate the book and am dropping will largely get ignored, or worse, encourage MARVEL to DROP the book. Letters that say, "I'd like this a whole lot more if..." give the editors feedback they can use.

[DelBubs]

Lobdell doesn't succeed. I don't have any feelings about the characters, one way or the other. The series so far has none of the depth or the serious issues David put in so well. So far it's fun, but empty.

Y'know what I'd really, really like to see in an Alpha Flight title?
Alpha Flight.

Is there a way for me to just get Messor to write all my posts from now on? It would save me a lot of time and say the same thing, but probably more clearly.

Mik's very eloquent when he gets into his stride and very precise with a lot of peoples views. The bit that stood out to me was 'empty', I'm in total agreement. I'm not even sure what happened to the Manimater in #8, I know he got beat, but how? With AF to begin with I use to read the issue twice/three times on the day of purchase and then a few more times while waitibg for the next issue, Mantlo put paid to that. While I wouldn't begin to suggest that vol 3 AF is anything like Mantlo's run or vol 2, to my mind it's nothing special. AF needs to sell to keep going, it needs to appeal to the established fanbase and then draw in new readers. You can't alienate the majority of the fanbase and drive away the newbies with a six part story that could have been told in 2/3 issues.

While the next arc has actually got me hooked and intriqued, I can't help but feel that it's maybe eight issues too late.

JMTCW

[cmdrkoenig67]

AF needs to sell to keep going, it needs to appeal to the established fanbase and then draw in new readers. You can't alienate the majority of the fanbase and drive away the newbies with a six part story that could have been told in 2/3 issues.

While the next arc has actually got me hooked and intriqued, I can't help but feel that it's maybe eight issues too late.

JMTCW

I agree Del...There may have been hundreds of established fans who've already dropped the book(but don't have a voice on any message board, simply because they don't post anywhere....I used to be one of them).

I also want to see Alpha Flight continue, but I'm very unhappy with the way the book is being handled and it's direction. I was very perturbed by the six issue beginning story arc(it was unnecessarilly long and full of fluff/filler/wasted space....not to mention making the original team look inept and not needed....I needed to say that again). I'm going to write another letter to Marvel....and yes, I'm writing polite ones.

Dana

[Le Messor]

[quote="DelBubs"]

Is there a way for me to just get Messor to write all my posts from now on? It would save me a lot of time and say the same thing, but probably more clearly.

Mik's very eloquent when he gets into his stride and very precise with a lot of peoples views.

But he crumbles under pressure. I mean, when people -expect- him to be elegant and precise, he just can't do it.

As for writing letters to Marvel saying what we want - I'm all for it. I just don't expect any results.

While I can argue that they don't listen to the letters we do write, the back argument would have to be 'Then they -really- don't listen to the letters we -don't- write.'

That said, for years we've been saying 'We want Alpha Flight'. Their answer? They give us a book full of strangers, slap those words on the cover, and go 'Satisfied?"

Um... No.

- Le Messor, aka Mik
"Behind your back, your colleagues are talking about Jeckyl and Hyde."

[Phil]

Let's just see how #12 ends up, eh?