Ben's Bit - Alpha Flight #3 Review

[syvalois]

I bought #3 and I find it very bof. Good drawing except for the eyes that don't look the same directions. I just don't get how walter know all that and find the way to make a very big mistake in Marrina's origine

[kozzi24]

And frankly, people that b***h incessantly about the botching of Marrina's origin should shut up for two reasons. One, at least you got to SEE Marrina! And two, at least you've got Alpha Flight. Shut up and enjoy it.

You're approaching flaming here, my friend. Your choice of avatar would indicate you're a relatively new AF reader, and I'm glad you're enjoying this new title. A lot of us that are "*****ing" are older readers who don't see much "Alpha Flight" in the latest ALPHA FLIGHT title.
Some history for you: Volume one had a good run of 50 issues, then sales really began to sink. It went direct market sales as a means of staying alive amid smaller numbers. Then, to further stay alive, they revamped it in a novel way. They brought back Shaman, Talisman, Puck, Northstar and Aurora. A variation of that core team remained until it was cancelled at #130, due as much to the changed marketplace of the 90's as to the book. From a very critical standpoint, Simon Furman and Pat Broderick were producing the best Alpha since Byrne had left the book.
Then came Volume 2, axed in under two years, with the reprieve of three additional issues to allow the writer to see if the return of the originals (in issue 17!) would boost sales enough for a stay of execution. The stories weren't all that bad, but it wasn't "Alpha Flight". It was far more of a New Mutants meets SHIELD black ops.
In Volume 3, we have Sasquatch and the Alpha Flight title. But where's Alpha Flight? Prisoners, or otherwise glimpsed in flashback panels. Like I said in my above post, I'd be lest critical if this was Lobdell's proposed "Hellions" book. I'd be less critical if it was a solo Sasquatch book.
I can overlook an error or two. I could overlook the misused "eh's" or the "ice fisherman" gaff or the color of the Plodex. But when I'm stopping every few pages because there are so many contradictions and mistakes, it detracts from my enjoyment of the book.
You are enjoying it. If discussions here jeapordize that enjoyment for you, I don't think the solution is for us to shut up, I think it's for you to stop listening and instead read something you enjoy.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Alright, I'll respond to this as best I can. First, I've been reading Alpha Flight for well over fourteen years now. I own every issue of the first two runs as well as most guest appearances in every other title. I'm not a new reader. I just happen to like Major Mapleleaf. A lot. He makes me laugh, and he's cute. Something I don't get enough of in Marvel these days.

As far as marketability, if Furman's run really was the best Alpha Flight since Byrne (and frankly, I agree with you there), then the book wouldn't have been cancelled. And it wasn't as if the title didn't have some serious weight behind it. It did go for 130 issues. But the fact remains that Alpha Flight began to get stale toward the end.

Now, volume two I enjoyed. A lot. But frankly, it's old-school fans like yourself, who aren't keen on change, that doomed the book. The concept was an interesting one, and the characters were interesting. Were they rip-offs of other characters? Yes. But almost every character imaginable is ripped off some other character. If people such as yourself had given the book more objectivity when reading it, perhaps it wouldn't have been cancelled.

If you sit down and read the book and feel an overwhelming need to nitpick it, then perhaps you don't need to be reading it. Continuity errors are going to happen. Perhaps you shouldn't get so uptight about them. Remember, this isn't reality. It's fantasy. And part of the enjoyment of fantasy requires one to bend the reality rules a bit. Maybe you should try doing that, instead of snagging on every continuity error you run into. You might enjoy the book more.

Now, I'm enjoying the book quite fine, even though I'm reading a lot of complaints about every little error in the book. But it's complaining like that which starts negative sentiment, which writers (and Marvel itself) pick up on... and that's how books get cancelled, too. Poor sales aren't the only thing that get them cancelled.

Just my two cents.

[HappyCanuck]

Major Mapleleaf Jr., all I can say is
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

BRAVO!!

[MAJOR MAPPLE LOB]

Play nice!

LOL!

Gosh, Gang --

You were all doing so well -- and now we're bickering like all those other boards! We're ALPHANS, darn it! We're better than that!

(NOTE: I just finished writing this sort of stream of thought post you'll find below...and I realized that I kind of just kept typing thoughts as they popped into my head. I was going to edit them, but then I thought "Oh what the heck -- why not? Just a glimpse into the fevered mind that is Scott Lobdell." Just please understand that sometimes my sense of humor and my use of exclaimation points kind of make me seem more irritated than I actually am! It doesn't always come out as humorously as I mean it!

Also, I really like ALPHA FLIGHT fans...a lot! I even like the ones that disagree with me! It doesn't mean I'm going to change my mind -- it just means I like youse guys a lot, so I figure a sort of behind the scenes unedited ramble is a way of saying THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT)

Just a few things that come to mind:

Regarding Sasquatch''s version of M's origin...? As the series continues (and we'll see a HUGE version of this in the next issue!) we're going to realize that a lot of the people's interpretations of events come specifically from their POV. That is, Sasquatch is only relating the story of Marrina as it was told to him. Fisherman? Ice fisherman? Ira Fisherman? He's not really clear on the details, and he's not much interested in fleshing it out to for the others -- it isn't important. Just like it wasn't important to bring her up in conversation here. What would be gained by explaining "Oh, yeah -- and one of them used to on our team once. Just so you know."

Any more than it was important to mention the MASTER. "And let me tell you, there was this one guy? Oooofta! Man, was he one bad guy. Let me take a few minutes and tell you about him. Not for any reason..." (?!)

Am I missing something? Is Walter missing something?

***

Regarding the pacing...and the tradepaperback gripe...? I just have to say, I am not writing for the tradepaperback, I am writing for the series. In several issues, as the series progresses, the PLODEX ship is going to be intregal to the series. Way intregal...and in a way cool way that I've never seen before. And I felt that it was important to take the time to spell it out here.

Similarly, I have always been fascinated by Byrne's creation of the PLODEX! Great name! Great concept! Great visuals! And a Canadian-centric threat! (JOHN, you ROCK!) and I loved the opportunity to explore it more at length.

Also, I think it was important not only to the readers, but even more important to the characters -- the new member of ALPHA FLIGHT. It was WALTER saying, "Look, this is what we're up against..." Yes, you and I and everyone else who read ALPHA FLIGHT know the PLODEX and what it means -- but the PLODEX aren't "Vampires" or "Werewolves" of "Harpies" -- they are an entirely different race with a long history. Could WALTER have said "We're going to kick some alien butt -- you in or you out?" I suppose he could. But he didn't. He spelled it out for them. How can you not love a guy like that?

*****

Regarding the dominant imperitive would have lead to endless battles on into eternity and therefor there would be no stadium where people fight, but rather everyone in the stadium would be fighting and killing each other?

Umm...we, as humans, have a genetic imperitve to procreate. Does that mean that all we do is rut day and night...? When we see other people rutting, are we compelled to tear at our clothes and rut along with them? (Okay, sometimes...but not always.)

We need to eat too, in order to survive. Does that mean we spend our days and nights eating? Eating and rutting and rutting and eating? It sounds a lot like my puppy, even he is sitting here sound asleep beside me. (Perhaps dreaming of eating and rutting, I don't know. He is asleep and will not tell me.)

*****

Someone mentioned Marvel's no flashback rule as a reason I might have done something...or not done something. I, umm...don't really talk to Marvel. And I've never heard of a no flashback rule.

*****

This reminds me of some other posts I've read (I just don't remember where) where people have said "Zuzha is totally derivative of Blah Blah Girl from THE OUTSIDERS." Now, to me, derivative means I derived my character from an existing character. And while I did (I thought it was interesting that even though Zuzha never knew her pops, she somehow wound up with the same job he had in his youth)...it wasn't because of Blah Blah Girl. I haven't read OUTSIDERS. I couldn't tell you who is on the team if you held a gun to my head -- Okay, if you held a gun to my head, I might be able to choke out "NIGHTWING!" and "SPEEDY!" (Is he still called SPEEDY? Or ARSENEL?! HELP ME! I CAN'T THINK UNDER PRESSURE LIKE THIS!!!) And now, I guess I could say "That bartender girl like PUCK! That bartender girl like PUCK!" CLICK!

******

While we're on the topic of "mistakes"...I should point out that there is a reason Yukon Jack talks like he does...his mangled syntax, his woefully inappropriate uses of "thous" and "thees". And all will be made clear. Just not immediately. (How many issues did we have to wait to see WOLVERINE without his mask? How much longer until he learned his code-name? When did we find out STORM was a thief before she was a weather goddess? That she was claustrophobic?) Hmmm?

Sit back and enjoy the ride...!

****

Um, is it "dumb" that the very name of a planet is illegal? Maybe.

****

Regarding PUCK's "inappropriate" use of the word, eh? I don't see it that way. Me? I use a particular expression very often. "Ooofta."

I say "Oooofta" if I see something amazing -- like Gwynneth Paltrow in that first photo shoot she did for TALK MAGAZINE. Sigh.

I say "Oooofta" when I see something HORRIBLE -- like if I pass a wrecked car on the side of the highway.

I say "Oooofta" when I am strrrrrrrrrrrrrrretching after too many hours at the keyboard.

There are many times I use the word.

Similarly, Zuzha sprinkles the word "eh" thoughout her coversations. Sometimes she does it for effect -- sometimes because she's nervous -- sometimes she is just being a smart ass. "Phew, eh" is her way of trying to inject some brevity into a situation. It is a decision she makes -- I don't thing one can quantify it as being right or wrong. She's a quirky chick who is being quirky.


****

Just to address the whole MEMBERSHIPT thang...I'd just like to say that I, as a fan of ALPHA FLIGHT, disagree with the notion that ALPHA FLIGHT is the original members world without end, Amen. I think ALPHA FLIGHT is a Canadian team of super powered operatives. Period. Over the years there have been different groupings of different heroes. When we FIRST met them in UNCANNY, they were a particular set of heroes.

When we first met them in ALPHA FLIGHT #1, they were joined by two OTHER members...(In the VERY FIRST ISSUE their membership was in flux!! WOO HOO! Puck and Marrina weren't even officially ALPHA FLIGHT members!)

I'll just say that again...from the very first issue, ALPHA FLIGHT was in flux.

And this version of the team is going to flux too. As a fan from their very first appearance, I am totally okay with that. I actually think a] that it is exciting and b] as John Byrne originally established, there were all levels of FLIGHT (ALPHA, BETA, GAMMA...) a GENIUS CONCEPT (Take ANOTHER bow, MR. BYRNE) that I remember as a fan thinking "I have NEVER seen ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE IN COMICS!! There isn't X-MEN and V-MEN and W-MEN who have to train to BECOME X-MEN! There aren't SOPHMORE AVENGERS and JR. AVENGERS and then with a lot of practice SR. AVENGERS! It's not like you start out part of the FANTASTIC TWO and then FANTASTIC THREE until you finally become a member of FANTASTIC FOUR!" Again, I think one of the COOLEST THINGS that ALPHA FLIGHT has going for it IS it's state of flux! (Heck, they were such a cool sort of team, that then they needed a new leader, they chose HEATHER?!! LOL!) I think it is a strength -- I think it makes ALPHA FLIGHT unique! And I intend to examine that mucho!

Am I missing something?

(Why do I bring this up...? Mostly because I want to point out that it's not like these things just happen spontaneously. I don't just sit down and say "I will change the roster!! And no one can stop me!!!" Instead I say "What is one of the things that sets ALPHA FLIGHT apart from any other book on the market? How do I play to that strength? How do I give the audience something they aren't getting from twenty other books?" You certainly have every right to disagree with my POV, but I just wanted to share where I am coming from.

Again, one and all -- thank you for supporting the book!

Youse guys ROCK![/i]

[SwiftFox]

.........

wow!


Welcome aboard. [edited: okay so you actually were here BEFORE me...but uh... welcome to uh... posting?]

I just don't know what to say. (Dude you sooo almost made me wet my pants.)

[HappyCanuck]

Um, thanks for the visit 'Mjr. Mapple Lob', and the recap of pretty much everything that was running throught my head in this little argument...

(uh, is he gonna be making posts semi-regularly?? and why do I feel like I just met someone like Cindy Crawford, or Lenard Nemoy, or Elvis??)

[Phil]

The man just oozes class....

[Moderator]Anyone involved in thinking of coming close to starting an argument, read what Scott's just said.
Do you really wanna disrespect the man?
Don't make me start dishing out warnings.[Moderator]

Scott, as to the trade comment, it wasn't a gripe per se, just wondering how much Marvel editorial had to do with pacing and things, as the tale so far seems like it'd be read a lot better althogether.

Which isn't at all to say that they don't work as single issues, because I'm loving them.

[varo]

just got to the issue today, i think it is absolutely amazing the detail given to the plodex's origin, i seriously can not remember the last time a villians origin was this well thought out and presented that it took a entire issue, i closed the book thinking "this team is going to get it's ass kicked".

not only that, but i don't think you guys are giving scott lobdell enough credit, although there was a pic of marrina underneath the panel of sasquatch stating "98% of the eggs were destroyed, the last of which was discovered by a ice fisherman" never once did he say that was marrina......98% could very well mean there was another egg, and it was indeed found by the ice fisherman, and IS NOT MARRINA let us not forget, someone had to capture the originals that had something to do with the plodex.

3 issues in, and i can sit back and relax and start enjoying the ride, alpha flight is finally at last back in capable hands.

1 thing i was thinking while reading the front splash page, how cool would it be to see another canadian super hero team show up in alpha. it's a pretty big country, i'm sure theres one or 2 of them floating around.

[varo]

o yea, the guy was a "ice fisherman" i think the north pole (not were santa lives, the magnetic one) has a little bit of ice, isn' that where the plodex ship that captured the master landed?


i am a regular detective.


(watch me be totally wrong..... )

[kozzi24]

It did go for 130 issues. But the fact remains that Alpha Flight began to get stale toward the end.

Poor sales are not the only reason titles have been canned by Marvel. Back in the 70's, the company had had overexpanded and cut a lot of titles that were going strong and had a fan base, but Marvel wished to cut back production to a more limited number of titles. Some of those cuts of good titles: Champions, Super-Villain Team-up, Nova. Maybe they would have failed due to sales eventually, but company policies and direction had much to do with it.
In the 80's, the same thing happened, for a slightly different reason. This related to a company-wide cutback, when nine new titles were being created, company policy found a need to make room for them by cutting existing titles. There were probably lower-selling titles, but without the need to make room for X-Factor and the New Universe, titles like Power Man/Iron Fist, The Defenders, and The Thing would have gone on longer.
Alpha Flight in 1994 was one of the first in a gradual changeover of the mid-nineties. If you re-read the letter column ANSWERS in AF 128-130, editorial NEVER stated low sales was the reason. They did state that the hard-core fans should have spoken up sooner than the announcement that the series would be ending. I don't think the Northstar limited would have followed the month after AF #130 if unprofitable sales were the sole reason for the title's demise. There are clear editoral purges to make room on the schedule for projects that might make more money than the titles being cut. Even aside the Heroes Reborn BS, the mid 90's saw the loss of Avengers West, (for Force Works) New Warriors (for Thunderbolts) and others.
In further defense of Furman, there was professional interest in Alpha greater than there had been since Byrne's run. DEATH METAL doesn't count, but at AF 128 hit the stands, Puck and Heather were appearing in Wolverine. An all-Alpha What-If had been committed to and appeared shortly after #130. Although abandon, probably in part because of the AF cancellation, Sasquatch had been slated to appear regularly in the Hulk and the X-Offices were expressing interest in Alpha characters. Alpha actually had speaking roles in crossovers.
Alpha had gotten stale in the middle. No writers rushed to guest-star Alphas in their titles between AF 50 and 120. Puck appeared in a Wolverine 3-parter, and there were appearances in Avengers and SHIELD that don't count because they were written by the Alpha scribes of the time.

Now, volume two I enjoyed. A lot. But frankly, it's old-school fans like yourself, who aren't keen on change, that doomed the book.

Like myself? I supported Volume 1 at its worst, and supported all of Volume 2. So far, I've bought all of Volume 3.

Most of my inspection of #3's background of the Plodex was made from the standpoint of realISTIC s/f writing, which has tenets that include making fictional work (1) self-consistent and (2) along current theory of real science, or explained why it differs. Darwinism 101: creatures as nihilistic as the (very human) Plodex were made out to be don't survive.

...complaining like that which starts negative sentiment, which writers (and Marvel itself) pick up on... and that's how books get cancelled, too.

I don't really nit pick. I am not the one who raised the qualm about the "ice" fisherman, and in fact defended Scott Lobdell on the point along the very same lines with which he defended himself. What you point out is true, but is short sightedness on the part of Marvel. Current editorial staff just don't seem to bother fact checking (see the S/F rule (1) above) and publication policy does seem to favor ditching a mistake prone book for something easier. Avoiding the problem was easier back in the "good old days. I think Jim Shooter could recognize when something wasn't kosher with published history off the top of his head. Later regimes had employed knowledgible continuity editors like Peter Sanderson. (I may have that name wrong). I also never heard of the no flashback policy, but maybe that poster confused that with Marvel's very real "no footnote rule". Kudos to Tom B of Avengers for using the "Avengers file log on the letters page as a way of circumventing that for a while. My opinion is that (1) the no footnotes make it harder to track character histories and (2) hurt what could be used to promote trades of the stories the footnotes would refer to.
To nitpick is to look for little problems, as crab sufferers everywhere can attest. The "ice" adverb was bitpicking. I just don't see the change of a race always depicted as aquatically based suddenly turning human as a little problem.
Finally, I am not opposed to new characters. In Alpha, I never cared for Talisman, and she was Byrne. I really liked Persuasion, Pathway, Goblyn and Windshear. I could give or take Bosha, never thought Jeffries was used to the potential of his powers, and accepted Diamon Lil as "this could be interesting." I did not care for Manikin, Wyre, or (sorry Scott) Wild Child on the team.
I am critical of new characters being created when an underutilized character of similar ability or personality could just as well suffice, or ones that are blatant dirivitives OF CHARACTERS ASSOCIATED WITH THE SAME BOOK. This goes for characters such as Murmur (Kara), Miss Mass (Pearl), Yeti (Sasquatch), Bile (Pestilence) Flex (Jeffries), among others. Wouldn't the Northstar/Weapon PRIME fight have had a lot more emotional impact if it had been Vindicator, Aurora, Sasquatch and Wild Child sent to reign in J-P?
I am die hard in that an Alpha Flight title should have the characters recognizable as Alpha Flight, on at least half the roster.
Of Lobdell's new crew, I don't see use in the new Puck. (In reply to Scott, the use of "eh" as her personal "ooofta" comes across as a bad stereotype the like of which has not been seen since "The Phantom Menace.")
I think the old guy has potential.
I like what he's done with Nemesis, but personally saw her as a mystery figure with her own agenda, not an outright anarchist.
I don't care for Yukon Jack.
I do like Mapleleaf. I caught the deeper meaning of the "I don't wear panties" joke: this is the son of the 1st Mapleleaf you created, who had a gay son who died of AIDS, so it is very possible that this junior Mapleleaf has had to assure his parents that he was not the son wearing the panties. I like Mapleleaf a lot, and openly confess to having liked his old man in that single appearance. Mapleleaf Junior could be a great foil to the original Alpha as this straight laced guy has to deal with ironclad Heather, multple Aurora (especially the racy personality), Northstar's preference and attitude, Walter's challenged ethics, Puck as an analogy of genetic engineering in today's world. He could even view Shaman's relationship to Talisman in contrast to the upbringing that made Mapleleaf Jr the straight-laced guy and his brother the not-straight guy.
Basically a new character should emphasize or contrast the existing members. For me, and for other readers if I hear the talk in W!ldtime Comics (North Attleboro, Mass.) right, a band of new characters is NOT "Alpha Flight."
In contrast, I prefer the Avengers with no more two founding members so other heroes of the MU have a chance to shine.

Edited by Phil - Reason for Edit: We are NOT having arguments on this board.

[Nalyd Psycho]

I prefer to just look at a book for what it is rather than what was. To me, letting continuity effect my perception of a current book only limits my ability to enjoy comics, and at 4.25$, I need to enjoy the comic. Maybe you prefer to worry about these things, that's fine, but personally, I just let it slide. And I'm happy because I find Alpha Flight to be a darn good read.

It is so clear to me that both Nemesis and Major Mapleleaf are competing for breakout character of 2004. (With Cooper Santiago of Touch as their biggest competition.) These two, along with Sasquatch are clearly my favourites.

I found the Plodex to be very interesting and look forward to our action issues.

[Phil]

I also never heard of the no flashback policy, but maybe that poster confused that with Marvel's very real "no footnote rule".

No, it was clearly stated in the X-Office, I can't remember right now if it was in the Morrison Manifesto in the New X-Men HC, or on an interview with Morrison, as well as Claremont's X-Fan board somewhere I think, that they weren't allowed to go back into the past and add details to events that never happened, so as not to confuse readers.

However, with the return to spandex costumes and traditional superhero action this may have become obselete.

[beetleblack]

I think pretty much everything that Morrison tried to do with the X-Men will now (sadly) be completely over turned!!! But then I suppose if you think how many different directions AF had in it's original run...

[DelBubs]

There's been some very interesting things said here, but I would just like to take one point that struck me. The comment re 'Old time fans' probably contributing to the demise of Vol 2. I have never hidden the fact that IMHO Vol 2 has no place in the alpha mythos and if you look what has been done with them since, neither do a lot of writers. I bought all of Vol 2 including the Annual etc and on the AWaves mailing list, made my views of each issue clear. My love of Alpha is such that I even continued reading the book when Mantlo was ripping the heart out of them in vol 1.

To my mind vol 2 was cancelled because a lot of readers came on board and very quickly disembarked. I know many old time AF fans and don't know of one who stopped picking up Vol 2 until the end. Many of us who had web sites at the time placed banners supporting the team and linking to an on line petition. While I may not like Vol 2, I realised that lots of new Alpha fans only had those issues to gauge their fondness for the team, so supported the book until the end. If anyone should be blamed for that cancellation, it should be Seagle who wandered off into gov conspiracy theory land as an easy out, instead of trying to write unique stories that existing AF fans had appreciated. I blame Marvel for flooding the market around that time with no clear policy of the future of the comics that came out then. A kind of hit and miss policy that was picked up on by fans who left numerous new releases in droves.

In regards to Furman, his tenure was probably the third longest of any writer and to my mind his work rates right up there with the last 16 issues of Byrnes run. Naysayer anywhere will obviously have some impact on fickle readers, but if a comic is written well enough, than anyone who is not a sheep (who follows blindly) will obviously make up their own mind.

I'm not getting out of my tree here, but just thought that I should answer any charges that fans and not the writer and artist where to blame for vol 2 going tits up.

Cheers