Who Or What Is Nemesis ?

[JohnnyCanuck]

Well, Northstar's personal take on Nemesis' face was just that: his personal take. The lifeless eyes, the burden she shoulders, perhaps Clayton simply isn't capable of conveying something so dark in his art. But I don't want to speak for him or anything.

As for being long-lived but not immortal, well, look at the Eternals, or the Asgardians. Many of them are youthful in appearance, but they aren't immortal.

You Mean Dave right?? and when I asked Dave he told me that was what Lobdell wanted. So being the good little guest artist he complied.

[Major Mapleleaf Jr]

Oops, yeah, I meant Dave. I haven't even read the new issue yet (relying on Ben's scans in his review until I pick it up), so that's what I'm going on. I'm not sure if I like Lobdell's take on Nemesis just yet, but I'll see where he goes with her.

[bigbloo]

We have seen the ANADAF Nem's face before this issue. I think this is the same girl as the one in the black and white photograph in issue #4. or was it #5?

[Ben]

We have seen the ANADAF Nem's face before this issue. I think this is the same girl as the one in the black and white photograph in issue #4. or was it #5?

Yah, I had assumed that was a flashback, and was a very old pic of her, and she no longer looked like that. Even in that pic her eyes are kinda baggy, and she looks a bit zombieish

Ben

[Le Messor]

They didn't -try- to make her look like her description - or, indeed, like the life she's led happened to her. She's a teenie-bopper.

- Le Messor
"Avoid commas, that are not necessary."

[JohnnyCanuck]

We have seen the ANADAF Nem's face before this issue. I think this is the same girl as the one in the black and white photograph in issue #4. or was it #5?

Yah, I had assumed that was a flashback, and was a very old pic of her, and she no longer looked like that. Even in that pic her eyes are kinda baggy, and she looks a bit zombieish

Ben

Yes , Dave said that Scott told him to make it look like that picture. But I'm not a spoiler kind of guy.

[DelBubs]

Just to muddy the waters a tad. In The OHTTMU Wolverine 2004, Nemesis is named as Jane St Ives.

[Cliff]

OHTTMU

Now that's one heck of an acronym...

I think you're all right (except for the vampire bit from llike...page 2 of this thread).

Spirit of vengeance. Right. Each related to the last; sisters or daughters - it doesn't matter. It's a family curse.

The first "dies" after killing St. Ives; turns to dust. The second, not sure if she dies or not, but the third is seeming not the second, so there's been a change of ownership of the suit and sword at some stage. (sorry...a litte caried away with the S's - lol)

What if Nemesis is a spirit adopted willingly?

The third Nemesis then could have a completely differnt motivation to that of the first of second and likewise for all of the others. The first was motivated through faith to exact her vengeance and, when it was meted out, she fell to dust. "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust" comes to mind ans is something said at Christian funerals, so her "demise" was the result of her achieving her vengeance. Nem 2 I don't remember much about and dont' recall her dying. However, she didn't mention this "Holy Qest" or whatever, so the "host" of the Nemesis spirit didn't seek vengeance for that reason. This new third Nemesis has her own motivations for vengeance - anarchism. She's seemingly changing her mind and I wouldn't be surprised if something comes of that.

Further support of this is that each variation of Nemesis had varried powers. The first had the sword and could fly but she was also able to stave of death with the blade. Nem 2 had the sword, may have been able to fly, but IIRC correctly, she couldn't nad certainly didnt' have power over death. Nem 3 clearly cannot fly because Centenial has to carrier her at one point. She also has a scabbar to hold her sword in. Dont' know about 2, but 1 deffinitely didn't, so perhaps the nature of the sword is differnt each time someone adopts the Nemesis persona.

I also think it's a "deal with the devil" sort of arrangement, which might explain why Nem 1 was portrayed as hideous, but Nem 3 obviously isn't. Nem 1 had been hunting St. Ives for a long time and may hae been very old or even dead - kept alive by her vengeance towards him until his death.

The catch I forgot about is that Puck chopped him up but St. Ives still didn't die. It could be then that the Nemesis "deal" is a flawed one and anyone taking up the mantle is doomed until St Ives is actually destroyed. Or it could be totally unrelated to him, meaning that Nem1 felt she had succeeded and with that success of her "holy mission" her body was consumed by vengeance and rendered to dust. Her sister then makes a similar deal. I can't remember whenther she's dead at the end of #130 or not. Then we have Nem 3 starting the cycle over again, but Lodell seems to indicate she's the same "Jane" as Nem 2. In either case, she's not exacted her vengeance and the Nemesis power/spirit keeps her alive unti it is exacted.

[kozzi24]

I'm pretty sure she was alive at #130's close.

[Cliff]

If she's alive, then 3 could be the same as 2 easily. If not (I jsut don't remember is all) then the "spirit" thing still tracks.

[Le Messor]

Nemesis 3 can fly - all of them can. Centennial was annoyed when he learned she could, because he'd been carrying her.

Nemesis 1 chopped up Earnest in #8, and Puck (?) and a train in #31. He's been dead, as far as we know, since that second one.

Their characters, however, are completely different. Nem 1 goes on about her holy quest, Nem 3 about anarchy in the Canada, and Nem 2 about neither.

- Le Messor
"Fire, searing pain, black cat... I must be in Heaven!"
- Homer

[Cliff]

Well, there's is the ancient ...erm...is it Greek? I think so.

Nemesis is the godess of retribution. Perhaps it's an extension of that. Hercules could become involved...and so on...

Here's some stuff from the Ecyclopedia Mythica on-line:

In Greek mythology, Nemesis is the goddess of divine justice and vengeance. Her anger is directed toward human transgression of the natural, right order of things and of the arrogance causing it. Nemesis pursues the insolent and the wicked with inflexible vengeance. Her cult probably originated from Smyrna. She is regarded as the daughter of Oceanus or Zeus, but according to Hesiod she is a child of Erebus and Nyx.

She is portrayed as serious looking woman with in her left hand a whip, a rein, a sword, or a pair of scales. In the Hellenistic period she was portrayed with a steering wheel. Also called Rhamnusia, from a temple and statue of her in Rhamnus, a village in the northern part of Attica. The epithet Adrasteia "she whom none can escape", properly of the those of the Phrygian Cybele, was later applied to her.

Our Nemesis seems to be right handed, but she carries a sword and she is serious looking. (lol) I think the most interesting thing in that entry though is the mention of her motivation of vengeance being directed at "human transgression of the natural, right order of things and of the arrogance causing it." That is dead on.

Not much light shed when looking up the connection to either Oceanus (embodiment of the oceans and rivers) or Zeus (ruler of the Greek Gods on Olympus) but the info about Erebus and Nyx is neat. Erebus is the god of chaos and the underworld and Nyx is the goddess of night. "She whom none can escape" seem pretty appropriate too.

[tkmadison]

It would seem she has either hightened agility, or is very well trained. Her sword id mystical by nature. It is supposively only 1 atom thick, and near indistructable.

an atom thick?
so you shouldn't even be able to see it when facing it's blade?

[DelBubs]

I think the definition of Nemesis that Cliff showed from the Encyclopedia Mythica is probably as near to what Byrne intended when he introduced the character.

Now I could go with the idea of ST Ives young daughter finding a way to strike a deal with whoever to take on the Mantle of Nemesis, if taking out pops was part of the deal. Given that Deadly Ernest is so against the natural order of things, that should have been a given anyhow .

Taking that one step further, there's always going to be a need for Nemesis, the natural order is always going to be contradicted, so St Ives daughter fulfills her quest as Nemesis, crumbles to dust and almost immediately some one else becomes her. Each one Nemesis, but with different human traits.

As for the sword, I'm not even gonna attempt it

[Cliff]

Exactly. And i dont't even think there has to be a relation between the host of Nemesis either. By saying "sister" it could be in a non-familial way like nuns. Women's groups often refer to thier members as "sister" and in less structured groups, like several women friends, do the same thing. Any sort of comonality could be the rationalle for Nem2 to refer to Nem1 as her "sister" and yet still ahve all three incarnations be both differnt women...and the same one.



Sword = magical.

Full stop.

I wouldn't lose sleep of "atom thick" since that's theoretically impossible anyway. I'd always though it was a molecule thick, but it's neither here nor there, really. I think it's as sharp as is necessary reletive to Nemesis' will.

Oh...and magical.