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Thread: Marvel sucking in the comic department.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    I am only "familiar" with the New 52 stuff for DC.
    Maybe that's my issue; I'm not.

    I'm enjoying All-Star Batman though.
    And looking forward to the Wildstorm relaunch.


    (other than with books like "Deadpool" and "Squirrel Girl", which are silly books, without much in regards to story, no matter what anyone says!)
    I'm genuinely enjoying Squirrel Girl, and I'm not the target audience.
    I'm pretty sure Mik and Rob are too.
    What's wrong with silly? Didn't a LOT of readers spend time complaining that books were too dark and serious and not silly and fun, in the 2000's?

    I mean, it's basic super heroes. How do you make it so that one audience can't enjoy it? (Answer: Bad writing).
    But then the reverse could apply; the last seventy years of comics have at times made it so female readers, black readers, homosexual readers etc... can't enjoy comics (and no, not all). A comic you have really enjoyed has a good chance of having offended or excluded someone else.

    Just because you don't like a comic, or it isn't aimed at you, it doesn't make it bad writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    ...
    You'd let a kid read Deadpool?!?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    The comic? Sure.

    The amount of violence shown in Deadpool may be more "bloody" - but certainly no more violent than the Saturday morning cartoons of Road Runner and Will E. Coyote and all the cuss words are "#$%!" - which is what I remember reading as a kid.
    I personally disagree.
    There are bones breaking, internal organs, red blood...
    Last edited by Phil; 10-12-2016 at 10:55 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Aha! Now I know who you are on Twitter!
    oh oh... busted!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Maybe that's my issue; I'm not.
    I'm enjoying All-Star Batman though.
    And looking forward to the Wildstorm relaunch.
    I am... optimistic, given I've enjoyed New 52 and Rebirth so much, in regards to Wildstorm relaunching. I am curious if they're going to simply disregard all previous continuity and do a clean reboot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I'm genuinely enjoying Squirrel Girl, and I'm not the target audience.
    I'm pretty sure Mik and Rob are too.
    What's wrong with silly? Didn't a LOT of readers spend time complaining that books were too dark and serious and not silly and fun, in the 2000's?
    Oh, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with silly. I just don't care for the over the top, slap stick, silly, which I feel both Squirrel Girl and Deadpool are. But I am in the minority, as a kabillion people love Squirrel Girl and Deadpool.

    When it comes to comics, I just want the basic good vs evil type story, we saw throughout the 70s and early 80's. Super hero battles, with some character development tossed in there for good measure. Continuity in a book/characters, all remaining intact. Anything other than that, I am not liable to connect it, because of the costs of comics these days (and well, because I collect every-single Rebirth title, so I already dump a lot of money into comics!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    But then the reverse could apply; the last seventy years of comics have at times made it so female readers, black readers, homosexual readers etc... can't enjoy comics (and no, not all). A comic you have really enjoyed has a good chance of having offended or excluded someone else.
    But here's what I don't understand. Marvel has HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of characters already. Why make Thor a female? To appeal to the females who want a strong female character? Why didn't they simply use Valkyrie? (Just as an example). And let's be clear, I have nothing against female readers, black readers, homosexuals. As we all (probably know) - most of my favorites are strong female characters: Snowbird, Namorita, Valkyrie. And I have always loved Northstar, and made that clear. I just don't understand the need to diversify existing characters into "new" characters to take over their mantles... rather than developing the metric ton of characters, sitting there being unused. (I get it, in the end, because how many people would buy a Valkyrie book vs a Female Thor book? It's all about sales... And I think that's part of it... everything seems like a sales pitch, rather than an attempt to tell good stories... and I am sure there's good stories in these... I tried the female Thor, and lasted about three issues... But I am sure, elsewhere good stories are being told, I am just sad, that it's not with all these other characters sitting around, rather than changing up existing characters, because it hauls in sales... but Marvel is a business... and it needs to make money, it's circular and evil... #EndRamble)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    Just because you don't like a comic, or it isn't aimed at you, it doesn't make it bad writing.
    Well, it does make it bad writing to me. I am not speaking for the whole universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I personally disagree.
    There are bones breaking, internal organs, red blood...
    Understood. Different strokes for different folks.
    Last edited by Tawmis; 10-12-2016 at 03:33 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I'm pretty sure Mik and Rob are too.
    Confirmed! (At least, my half.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    What's wrong with silly? Didn't a LOT of readers spend time complaining that books were too dark and serious and not silly and fun, in the 2000's?
    Yep! And SG is such a relief from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    There are bones breaking, internal organs, red blood...
    Not to mention the kinds of stories it tells... I'm thinking about the time he goes back in time and murders his own parents, whistling all the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    the last seventy years of comics have at times made it so female readers, black readers, homosexual readers etc... can't enjoy comics
    And Christians! Don't forget us!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    When it comes to comics, I just want the basic good vs evil type story, we saw throughout the 70s and early 80's. Super hero battles, with some character development tossed in there for good measure. Continuity in a book/characters, all remaining intact.
    I agree with you so much here!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    Why make Thor a female? To appeal to the females who want a strong female character?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    Not to mention the kinds of stories it tells... I'm thinking about the time he goes back in time and murders his own parents, whistling all the way.
    But - there's blood and violence all over comics. Is it just because the ink is colored red so YOU KNOW it's blood that makes it different? (And by you, I mean that in a "wide term" - as in a very general, those who wouldn't let their kids read Deadpool, for example).

    Remember when Snowbird ripped out Sasquatch's heart? You can definitely see blood. And then there's the story with - who was it? Llan? (Ugh, how did he ever exist?!?) - Where there was an entire city of dead people; dead bodies scattered everywhere (I can't remember the details - but Silver and Auric or whatever were in it too, with Nemesis).

    To be clear, not saying anyone's wrong. Just always curious about the "fine line" for comics - where violence becomes "too much." (I mean there's some that clearly, purposely, go beyond the envelope - for example Rob Liefeld's latest Bloodstrike, had a guy's "privates" ripped off... And I remember, in the original Bloodstrike, or Brigade, or it might have been in Supreme - the character Supreme was literally ripping members of Bloodstrike apart - like arms being ripped off and people torn in half... which, I think I'd still let my kid read, assuming he had a firm understanding between reality and comics lol)
    Last edited by Tawmis; 10-12-2016 at 05:21 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    I am curious if they're going to simply disregard all previous continuity and do a clean reboot.
    I believe it's a clean reboot AND completely separate to the main DC Rebirth Universe.
    I may be wrong though.

    But I am in the minority, as a kabillion people love Squirrel Girl and Deadpool.
    I'm not a fan of the Deadpool title. I like the film though.

    When it comes to comics, I just want the basic good vs evil type story, we saw throughout the 70s and early 80's.
    Statistically though, there's only so many times that particular story can be told.

    But here's what I don't understand. Marvel has HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of characters already. Why make Thor a female? To appeal to the females who want a strong female character? Why didn't they simply use Valkyrie? (Just as an example).
    (I get it, in the end, because how many people would buy a Valkyrie book vs a Female Thor book?
    You've pretty much just answered yourself there :P

    It's all about sales... And I think that's part of it... everything seems like a sales pitch, rather than an attempt to tell good stories... and I am sure there's good stories in these...
    But you can't tell good stories for free.
    Creators HAVE to put food on the table.
    Printers HAVE to be paid.
    Distributors HAVE to etc.

    If the story is the same whether it's a non-recognizable character or a recognizable character if the budget depends on it, it'll be the latter.

    I tried the female Thor, and lasted about three issues...
    And that's totally your prerogative.

    But I am sure, elsewhere good stories are being told
    Again, you're using 'good' and 'bad' stories and writing, when you just mean stories that you don't enjoy.

    Well, it does make it bad writing to me.
    That's a fair compromise.

    I am not speaking for the whole universe.
    Heh, indeed; nor am I.
    Or anyone else. Certainly not Marvel.

    Understood. Different strokes for different folks.
    Amen to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    Is it just because the ink is colored red so YOU KNOW it's blood that makes it different?
    Remember when Snowbird ripped out Sasquatch's heart? You can definitely see blood.
    But the majority of the blood is black; as per the Comics Code back then to desensitize.
    And then there's the story with - who was it? Llan? (Ugh, how did he ever exist?!?) - Where there was an entire city of dead people; dead bodies scattered everywhere (I can't remember the details - but Silver and Auric or whatever were in it too, with Nemesis).
    But they were vague bodies, with less detail and certainly not graphic detail.

    Just always curious about the "fine line" for comics - where violence becomes "too much."
    Oh, I'm not saying it's too much at all.
    I fully support the right for comics to be violent.
    As long as they're explicitly marked as such. Which Deadpool is.

    (I mean there's some that clearly, purposely, go beyond the envelope - for example Rob Liefeld's latest Bloodstrike, had a guy's "privates" ripped off... And I remember, in the original Bloodstrike, or Brigade, or it might have been in Supreme - the character Supreme was literally ripping members of Bloodstrike apart - like arms being ripped off and people torn in half...
    I've seen as brutal, if not worse, in Deadpool comics.

    had a firm understanding between reality and comics
    I think that the key, and a very sensible one.

  7. #37
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    RE: Wildstorm reboot.

    I believe it's a clean reboot AND completely separate to the main DC Rebirth Universe.
    I may be wrong though.
    I am kind of hoping for that as well. But I am also hoping they go to their more classic look. The recent Cyberforce stuff from Top Cow, I feel lost touch. So I am hoping Wildstorm goes back to the more classic type look and story. But, chances are, they won't.

    RE: Good vs Evil Stories.
    Statistically though, there's only so many times that particular story can be told.
    Well, they didn't have a problem telling it from 1940 through 1980. That's 40 years. (The 90's were a little chaotic, to say the least). With the THOUSANDS of characters Marvel has; there should be no problem bringing in new characters, and even telling a somewhat similar "Good vs Evil" story. There's so much untapped potential. The real problem is that they stick to the same characters, and wash them over so much, that they've lost focus. Both writers and characters.

    RE: Stories I don't enjoy.

    Again, you're using 'good' and 'bad' stories and writing, when you just mean stories that you don't enjoy.
    So ... you've never said that something sucks, because you didn't enjoy it? Nothing? Ever? At all? Everything you've ever experienced that was bad, didn't suck, it was just "not your thing"? If so, you're a much better person than I am. (Which may not take much...)

    RE: Reign in RED Blood!
    But the majority of the blood is black; as per the Comics Code back then to desensitize.
    So... if Deadpool were a B&W comic, you'd let your kid read it? Because the blood's not red? It's the actual coloring of blood that crosses the line?

    RE: Llan the Lameness and the dead bodies
    But they were vague bodies, with less detail and certainly not graphic detail.
    Am I misremembering? I thought it was pretty "graphic" (in terms of clarity) if memory serves me right...?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis
    But - there's blood and violence all over comics. Is it just because the ink is colored red so YOU KNOW it's blood that makes it different?
    There are a lot of comics these days I wouldn't show to a kid. It isn't just the colour of the blood, it's the amount of unrelenting, mean-spirited violence in any given comic.
    Arbitrary?
    Sure, why not. But this is what I would show a kid - not what I think should be out on the stands or what I would tell others to show a kid or not. Even if I express surprise when they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis
    RE: Llan the Lameness and the dead bodies

    Am I misremembering? I thought it was pretty "graphic" (in terms of clarity) if memory serves me right...?
    There are some issues in the Llan saga I wouldn't show a kid.

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  9. #39
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    I wouldn't show any of the Llan issues to any kid - or adult - just because it was bad.

    Which loops me back around to the original topic of the thread ("Marvel sucking right now")... and as always, that's a matter of opinion (one, that I agree with 99%)...

    But I was on the CBR forum today - and someone in the Marvel section - in a thread similarly titled to this one said - "DC's Rebirth is just pandering to the readers who want a basic story. I'd rather see Marvel burn to the ground. At least they'd die with their dignity."

    And I thought.

    They're right. DC Rebirth is giving us the basic stories, which is what I had wanted. I love books/novels. And I feel like that's what Marvel has been doing lately. I get they're trying to tell more "advanced" stories. But for me, in that medium, it doesn't work for me. And that's what it really boils down to me. I totally get why folks are digging Marvel; because they are trying to tell more complex stories. Marvel and DC are both sodas; but Marvel's just not my flavor anymore.

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    Impressive that they came out on top. I still only get Spider-Man 2099 and Uncanny X-Men from Marvel.

    And only (this week) dropped Harley Quinn, Batgirl, and Batman Beyond. All the rest of the Rebirth titles I collect still.

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