Opinions on the ending to volume 4.

[Le Messor]

Honestly, I think those are both horrible plot developments from two of my least favourite times on Alpha Flight.

~ Le Messor
"Get off the starting block, then improve your position."
~ Dave Roberson, former New Trier swim coach

[Phil]

Heather may have shown remorse, but there were no repercussions. Although I suppose technically Narya wasn't a legally registered citizen.

I enjoyed V4 and didn't mind the Heather killing scene too much; it wasn't handled perfectly, but what is?

I'm sure she's shown remorse off-panel

[Tawmis]

Heather may have shown remorse, but there were no repercussions. Although I suppose technically Narya wasn't a legally registered citizen.

Didn't she have a government job (in her "human" form)? She had to be a legally registered citizen (or at least an alias, as such). Even the handbook lists her as a legal citizen of Canada, with no criminal record.

[Phil]

"Anne McKenzie" was registered, yes - using falsified documentation.
Narya wouldn't have been, as she couldn't have had a birth certificate, so definitely couldn't have had a death certificate.
As she wasn't killed in human state it's debatable as to if it would have been documented.

All 'technically' guesses, though.

Comics!

[Le Messor]

On the one hand, her birth - which was definitely in Canada - was overseen by a doctor. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a genuine birth certificate (with her birth year changed by deed poll).

On the other hand, you must be right about the false certification for Anne, but:

Narya wouldn't have been, as she couldn't have had a birth certificate, so definitely couldn't have had a death certificate.

I'd be surprised if that were true. Plenty of people must die without a birth certificate; not to mention John and Jane Does. They'd still have death certificates (I'd assume).

Also, I hope Canada doesn't waive the 'do not murder' law for non-citizens. If they do, I wish somebody had told me that before I went there!

This is all me making a bunch of assumptions, but I HOPE they're all true. But it does the risk of turning us all into donkeys. But we are talking about an interspecies shapeshifter here.

~ Le Messor
"Give me ambiguity or give me something else."
~ Bumper Sticker

[Phil]

It's more the fact she's not human...
Does Marrina have one?

[Le Messor]

You're probably right, that would come into it. (Though I hope it's not too much of an issue in a place the the Marvel Universe, where human non-humans are common.)

Marrina? ...probably, but one of those 'forged' ones like they give to adoptees.

~ Le Messor
"Parents learn a lot from their children about coping with life."
~ Muriel Spark

[Yankee]

I do not consider Heather killing of snowbird murder. At all. If she hadn't, then pestilence would have used snowbirds power to devastate canada if not the world, so that isn't murder. And in my opinion, snowbird the character would have made the same decision in heathers shoes. Was it not her who killed Walter when Tarnaq took control of his form ? Or does she get a pass because his spirit was still alive? I Get being bitter having a favorite character die, but if the writer gave their killer a worthy reason of doing so, then while I might be mad at the writer, I won't be mad at the killing character. In my opinion, heather saved the world, shed remorse for having to kill her friend, what more do you people want? I don't take this incident as viewing characters like snowbird or Marrina as being okay to murder non humans in marvel universe canada, I see it as a leader having to make a tough choice on saving her friend or Saving the world. But that's the last Im going to say on this subject, ending with by paraphrasing Jon Stewart when he debated Bill oreilly "we subscribe to two different definitions of the reality in which we live. it is one think to debate principles and political positions. But if we believe in two different realities, then at least one of us is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. "

[Tawmis]

I do not consider Heather killing of snowbird murder. At all. If she hadn't, then pestilence would have used snowbirds power to devastate canada if not the world, so that isn't murder. And in my opinion, snowbird the character would have made the same decision in heathers shoes. Was it not her who killed Walter when Tarnaq took control of his form ? Or does she get a pass because his spirit was still alive? I Get being bitter having a favorite character die, but if the writer gave their killer a worthy reason of doing so, then while I might be mad at the writer, I won't be mad at the killing character. In my opinion, heather saved the world, shed remorse for having to kill her friend, what more do you people want? I don't take this incident as viewing characters like snowbird or Marrina as being okay to murder non humans in marvel universe canada, I see it as a leader having to make a tough choice on saving her friend or Saving the world. But that's the last Im going to say on this subject, ending with by paraphrasing Jon Stewart when he debated Bill oreilly "we subscribe to two different definitions of the reality in which we live. it is one think to debate principles and political positions. But if we believe in two different realities, then at least one of us is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. "

See, this is where we differ. To me, killing a fellow team member is not a heroic act, by any stretch of the imagination. Your team is there, because they believe in you. The moment she killed Snowbird, the rest of the team should have asked themselves, "Hold up - if she was so willing to kill Snowbird... what would stop her from killing me?"

I get Pestilence is strong... but Snowbird was a demi-goddess. She wasn't just a normal, human being. I would have at least (you know if this were all "real") - given Snowbird a chance to fight it off - and if it went south - call in Doctor Strange, or Thor or someone. I would not opt to kill my team mate first "just in case."

[Yankee]

See, this is where we differ. To me, killing a fellow team member is not a heroic act, by any stretch of the imagination. Your team is there, because they believe in you. The moment she killed Snowbird, the rest of the team should have asked themselves, "Hold up - if she was so willing to kill Snowbird... what would stop her from killing me?"

I get Pestilence is strong... but Snowbird was a demi-goddess. She wasn't just a normal, human being. I would have at least (you know if this were all "real") - given Snowbird a chance to fight it off - and if it went south - call in Doctor Strange, or Thor or someone. I would not opt to kill my team mate first "just in case."

Heres the thing what I think all of us forgetting here: Heather gave Snowbird the chance to fight off Pestilence. If you remember the original dilemma was this for heather: Kill Snowbird BEFORE she could kill Snowbirds baby (which as the comic established, the baby's purity was already succeeding in destroying pestilence from within and if that happened pestilence couldn't spread to a new host because his spirt would be wiped out without the physical form dying ) or give Snowbird the chance to snap out of it and hopefully save both her and the baby. Heather chose the latter,saying afterwards, "but she was a sister Alphan, a friend. I hesitated." So in fact, Killing snowbird was not the first option heather chose. She actually gave her "sister alphan" that chance to fight off pestilence. And in giving her said chance, snowbird had to watch as her own body killed her baby. heather's hesitation allowed pestilence via snowbird to murder a helpless child. If snowbird couldn't snap out of the mind control to halt herself from killing her own child, what chance did she had to fight off pestilence now residing in her own body, let along doing so in a grief stricken state? Giving her a further chance could have resulted in many of the other teammates in the caves dying ( puck was incapacitated I believe, Northstar was dying from the illness Pestilence sped up inside him, shaman without the confidence to attempt to purge pestilence from snowbirds mind, and Aurora had withdrawn back into her Jean Marie persona. As Spock famously said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Snowbirds life versus potentially losing every other team member in the caves? Come on now. Heather gave Narya a chance to fight off pestilence: the result? A child lost their life at the hands of his mother. She couldn't afford to make the same mistake twice. And as for calling Thor and Dr. Strange? 1. The one mystic member who could have sent out the required psychic call for help, Shaman, was incapacitated with fear. 2. Considering how many battles are likely going on simultaneously in the Marvel U, what if they are unable to answer the call due to being tied up with other matters? and 3. Heather had precious seconds to make her decision, seconds that would end long before other Mystics had time to arrive. And I know I said I was done commenting on this line of dialogue, but you did provide questions worthy of being answered, or at the very least seen through another persons viewpoint

[Phil]

The thing is that Heather was brainwashed.
Not indoctrinated, but actually re-programmed by an alien. (I know Eshu wasn't, but at this point he's more Plodex than man, so using the term for lack of a better one, and for how a 'normal' human would see it in the MU)

She wasn't responsible for her actions; ergo she didn't commit them.
A decent lawyer could easily get her off that.

[Yankee]

The thing is that Heather was brainwashed.
Not indoctrinated, but actually re-programmed by an alien. (I know Eshu wasn't, but at this point he's more Plodex than man, so using the term for lack of a better one, and for how a 'normal' human would see it in the MU)

She wasn't responsible for her actions; ergo she didn't commit them.
A decent lawyer could easily get her off that.

Okay I see now we are back to the original subject to this thread after that all consuming snowbird detour. Who in the hell is Eshu unless that is the Masters real name which I somehow missed? But here's my relevant to the thread question: couldnt the master have reprogrammed Heather to where she didn't see Claire as necessary? By that I mean, Heather diverted his precious resources to get Claire , something he himself had no use for. And in fact, with the legal guardians being Codys supporters, killing them is an U unessecary and dangerous risk. That suggests to me that while the brainwashing changed her perception of right and wrong to the point where she felt killing unarmed innocents as valid, the desire to get Claire back was something there well prior to the brainwashing ie the unity process. I'm not suggesting she considered killing her cousins, but that sense of wronged by the government she had sworn to protect was already there for the unity process to manipulate even further till it reached the conclusion of murder is okay if I get my child back. One thing I will also say is that it seems a lot of people on this board are opposed to change or for characters to evolve, particular the original AF core. I mean until that 2011 relaunch, Marrina hadn't been seen since the late eighties, yet people expected her to be exactly as she had left, with no growth. And I maintain her initial core was in fact intact, just with a bit of an attitudinal change, which you know, happens to many people in real life.

[Phil]

Who in the hell is Eshu unless that is the Masters real name which I somehow missed?

Yup, correct!

couldnt the master have reprogrammed Heather to where she didn't see Claire as necessary?

the desire to get Claire back was something there well prior to the brainwashing ie the unity process.

Now obviously I'm no expert in fictional brainwashing (), but I'm guessing that's the point.
The Master needed a hook, or a seed to build on for the brainwashing, much as a hypnotic suggestion in the real world needs a focal point and often involves a memory and is grounded in reality. A weakness to exploit.
Jeanne-Marie had hers in the difference of her personalities.

Claire was the control he had over her and the aspect of her that allowed her to succumb to the brainwashing.

Marrina hadn't been seen since the late eighties, yet people expected her to be exactly as she had left, with no growth.

Probably because she'd been dead since the 80's, so growth wasn't possible.
Her previous reincarnated appearance in the CW:AF oneshot showed no change, or at least not the V4 change.

And I maintain her initial core was in fact intact, just with a bit of an attitudinal change, which you know, happens to many people in real life.

I agree; I had no problem with it.
To me it made more sense than her marrying Namor.

[Le Messor]

Please note, my tone here is one of calm curiosity, not aggressive nastiness. I never know how these things will be read.

a lot of people ... are opposed to change or for characters to evolve,

I see this argument a lot: 'if you don't like this change, you are opposed to all change.'
It makes me ask: what's wrong with opposing change? If I love something (original AF, in this case) the way it is, changing it is more likely to make me love it less than more; why would I support that?

Also, Marinna didn't just change a little; she did a complete 180°, and became a character who was enslaved to the book's anger, rather than the sweet, innocent girl from the first, without even a hand-wave explanation. I'm not seeing the core of which you speak of - she was unrecognisable to me. While the new character wasn't bad, I prefer the old version.

OTOH, I've never said that's not realistic. A lot of people have made the argument that the things she went through could make that happen, and I have no counter-argument to that.
I have often said, however, that if I'm saying I'm not enjoying something, calling that thing 'realistic' will never, ever change my mind. (If I'm calling it stupid, however, you can make a case.)
That said, I seem to remember the writer saying he did it because he didn't like to write the kind of character she used to be - not because of 'realism'.

Her previous reincarnated appearance in the CW:AF oneshot showed no change, or at least not the V4 change.

Do you mean the FI:AF oneshot?

~ Le Messor
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."
~ Anonymous

[Phil]

Do you mean the FI:AF oneshot?

Nope! Chaos War: Alpha Flight, where she first came back to life