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Thread: Opinions on the ending to volume 4.

  1. #31
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    Hunh. I'm seriously confusing things!

  2. #32
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    To be honest even though I used your use of Marrina as my example, my issue was more with Tawmis refusal to see any logic in heathers decision to kill snowbird. Not the writers decision to have her kill snowbird, but the heather the characters decision.
    "like Warren Moon before he defected, a perfect spiral!" - Eugene Judd

  3. #33
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    I think we're straying into meta-territory here!

    Heather's decision is obviously the writer's decision - a specifically crafted hard choice; both killing Snowbird and then Heather's family. In both cases Heather's decisions are written, and written for a reason.

    Whether either piece of writing struck gold and worked 100% as the writer originally imagined is a different story.

    And, as fan's of characters there is a tenancy to take an action personally and emotively; you've clearly stated that you're a Heather fan so don't like the fact that she has done something so horrific. Because of that you don't like the storyline.
    Tawmis has stated he was a big fan of Snowbird so obviously he didn't like the first storyline.
    It's not a 'refusal to see logic' just a difference in how that logic is perceived.

    I absolutely ADORE change, be it good or bad.
    As much as I love Byrne's run, I'd go crazy if the team hadn't changed since then.
    I love what other writer's have added to the characters, and don't care that it goes against their original personality - I'm sure as hell not the same person I was 35 years ago

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post

    I think we're straying into meta-territory here!

    Heather's decision is obviously the writer's decision - a specifically crafted hard choice; both killing Snowbird and then Heather's family. In both cases Heather's decisions are written, and written for a reason.

    Whether either piece of writing struck gold and worked 100% as the writer originally imagined is a different story.

    And, as fan's of characters there is a tenancy to take an action personally and emotively; you've clearly stated that you're a Heather fan so don't like the fact that she has done something so horrific. Because of that you don't like the storyline.
    Tawmis has stated he was a big fan of Snowbird so obviously he didn't like the first storyline.
    It's not a 'refusal to see logic' just a difference in how that logic is perceived.

    I absolutely ADORE change, be it good or bad.
    As much as I love Byrne's run, I'd go crazy if the team hadn't changed since then.
    I love what other writer's have added to the characters, and don't care that it goes against their original personality - I'm sure as hell not the same person I was 35 years ago
    Touche. I concede the floor there
    "like Warren Moon before he defected, a perfect spiral!" - Eugene Judd

  5. #35
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    No need to concede!

    The thread is very clearly marked as opinions on Volume 4 - you gave yours; feel free to carry on giving them!

    No-one has to share any opinions, or ever change theirs.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
    To be honest even though I used your use of Marrina as my example, my issue was more with Tawmis refusal to see any logic in heathers decision to kill snowbird. Not the writers decision to have her kill snowbird, but the heather the characters decision.
    I don't think there's logic to really be considered. We are, after all, discussing fictional characters. Holden says it best:
    https://youtu.be/0nVGCVlCzL0


    I completely understand your opinion that it was something, you felt, Heather needed to do. And it's not that I disagree with your opinion. It's yours, and that's cool.

    I guess, for me - when I think of Heather, I never saw her (prior to this) as someone so ruthless. I mean, even when they first found Logan, she was defensive over him - wanting to utterly protect him, even at the risk of her own health. She had always been written as someone who was very gentle and caring. So, her blasting Snowbird - I get why she did it - but it seemed, to me, out of character. It'd like watching this same situation go down and thinking that Captain America, or Thor, or Hawkeye would kill a fellow Avenger in this same situation. I don't think they would.

    So I get why the writer did it. He needed to shuffle out the "old school" Alpha Flight (I still believe this was his plan all along) to usher in a new set of characters to take over the book.

    I mean, take out the fact that it's Snowbird. Had Heather blasted - I don't know, Earthmover - I probably wouldn't have been annoyed back then - but I'd still be under the belief that it seemed out of character for her.


    Circling back to the original post - Heather killing her cousin.

    As we stated - under mind control, Marvel always excuses. Prime example, Captain America (the boy scout of all boy scouts) holds no apparent grudge towards Winter Soldier (Bucky) who killed Nomad (Jack Monroe) while "under the influence" of someone's mental manipulation. So if Cap can "forgive" someone, it seems like anyone in Marvel can.

    And the story has moved on past that, in World War Wendigo, where we see Heather is apparently no longer under the control of Unity, and "back" to herself.

    As to why Puck and Wolverine didn't do anything - well, since she's cured - who knows. She may have gotten help from them (off panel). If not, I could see that they may not have known. Puck was busy palling around with his new team that he was on X-Force, while Wolverine was busy being an Avenger, an Uncanny Avenger, a Secret Avenger, X-Men, X-Force, Uncanny X-Force, and Spider-Man's side kick, and whatever other title Marvel has - so Wolverine was probably entirely too busy himself dealing with everything from every book he's in.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    I don't think there's logic to really be considered. We are, after all, discussing fictional characters. Holden says it best:
    https://youtu.be/0nVGCVlCzL0


    I completely understand your opinion that it was something, you felt, Heather needed to do. And it's not that I disagree with your opinion. It's yours, and that's cool.

    I guess, for me - when I think of Heather, I never saw her (prior to this) as someone so ruthless. I mean, even when they first found Logan, she was defensive over him - wanting to utterly protect him, even at the risk of her own health. She had always been written as someone who was very gentle and caring. So, her blasting Snowbird - I get why she did it - but it seemed, to me, out of character. It'd like watching this same situation go down and thinking that Captain America, or Thor, or Hawkeye would kill a fellow Avenger in this same situation. I don't think they would.

    So I get why the writer did it. He needed to shuffle out the "old school" Alpha Flight (I still believe this was his plan all along) to usher in a new set of characters to take over the book.

    I mean, take out the fact that it's Snowbird. Had Heather blasted - I don't know, Earthmover - I probably wouldn't have been annoyed back then - but I'd still be under the belief that it seemed out of character for her.


    Circling back to the original post - Heather killing her cousin.

    As we stated - under mind control, Marvel always excuses. Prime example, Captain America (the boy scout of all boy scouts) holds no apparent grudge towards Winter Soldier (Bucky) who killed Nomad (Jack Monroe) while "under the influence" of someone's mental manipulation. So if Cap can "forgive" someone, it seems like anyone in Marvel can.

    And the story has moved on past that, in World War Wendigo, where we see Heather is apparently no longer under the control of Unity, and "back" to herself.

    As to why Puck and Wolverine didn't do anything - well, since she's cured - who knows. She may have gotten help from them (off panel). If not, I could see that they may not have known. Puck was busy palling around with his new team that he was on X-Force, while Wolverine was busy being an Avenger, an Uncanny Avenger, a Secret Avenger, X-Men, X-Force, Uncanny X-Force, and Spider-Man's side kick, and whatever other title Marvel has - so Wolverine was probably entirely too busy himself dealing with everything from every book he's in.
    Hear hear. Let's be friends Tawmis
    "like Warren Moon before he defected, a perfect spiral!" - Eugene Judd

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I absolutely ADORE change, be it good or bad.
    I'm sure as hell not the same person I was 35 years ago
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    No-one has to share any opinions, or ever change theirs.
    Hee hee hee...
    These two just made me laugh.

    (Sorry Phil... I do get holding both those opinions at the same time, it's just interesting to see them so close together.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
    So I get why the writer did it. He needed to shuffle out the "old school" Alpha Flight (I still believe this was his plan all along) to usher in a new set of characters to take over the book.
    Hunh. I thought that was actually a known fact, not something to 'believe'?

    ~ Le Messor
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    Hunh. I thought that was actually a known fact, not something to 'believe'?
    Known now, I believe, because it was confirmed in an interview, if I remember correctly.

    But back in 1980-or 90-something, before the days of the Internet, I was already getting the impression that this "new writer" was out to shuffle out the team and do a "All New X-Men" - er, "All New Alpha Flight."

    To be honest though, I didn't blame Bill initially. I actually blamed Byrne, for putting the team in a position of not having Mac. It was like killing Captain America in Avengers, or Cyclops (back then) in Uncanny X-Men. Was a "$%^&" move, I thought - like, "I am taking my toys and leaving." (Again, would not learn till the days of the internet, that he actually disliked writing Alpha Flight, so it seemed odd to kill off Mac, if he was intending on leaving anyway... though, I suppose, he didn't leave till almost a little over a year later...)

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    Hee hee hee...
    These two just made me laugh.
    (Sorry Phil... I do get holding both those opinions at the same time, it's just interesting to see them so close together.)
    Change of character isn't necessarily change of belief :P (but yeah, I appreciate the humorous irony!)

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