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Thread: Original Alpha Flight

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    I'm less worried about the (616) public perception of the team than I am the things they actually did and why.
    Running around robbing banks? Not heroic. Even if you're whacked-out on Scooby snacks.

    Sedition? Revolution? Depends on who you're rebelling against. Just saying you want a revolution isn't bad in and of itself - we all want to change the world.
    The book, however, didn't do enough for me to set up the evilness of the government. They kept saying 'Mind control! Mind control!' - after a while, I started asking: 'So? What's the mind control for?' because the mind control is the tool, not the ends. As much as I don't like the idea of it, they needed more than that to set up the evil. (There was a throwaway line in the final issue about taking over the galaxy; too little, too late.)

    Heather's actions - mitigated by mind control. But the writer wasn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    I'd like to see it, when you've got it where you want it. Heck, I've posted stuff and it's not quite ready for comic artboard, yet. G/A-F
    I might just do that.

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    Default Reset AF 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
    I'm less worried about the (616) public perception of the team than I am the things they actually did and why.
    Running around robbing banks? Not heroic. Even if you're whacked-out on Scooby snacks.


    I worry about all three: (1) the public perception of the team; (2) what they actually did, and; (3) why. Because I can't see (plausibly, anyhow) how even a comic-book high-level official could hold out either "Heather"/Vindicator or Mac/Guardian as the official, government-approved national super-hero.

    (1) Vindicator went into a residential neighborhood with a SWAT-team of armed goons---not to stun the legal-guardian-cousins and take Claire, that just wouldn't have been enough---but to killthem...and had a report with false statements
    by said goons already prepared. If a good lawyer can get Heather and her goon-squad off of something like this---even in a fictional world---then there's something far, far worse going on than a 40,000-year-old man trying to take over the world. [#4 ]

    (2) Mac/Guardian rationalizes the bank-robbery with a monologue worthy of a super-villain, but doesn't provide proof of what the Unity regime is doing that would justify such a radical move. Moreover, Mac doesn't explain how stealing the money is going to stop Cody and his Unity regime [not THE MASTER and his Unity regime] when Cody is already seated as the PM and broadcasting things that substantiate his position.
    [#5 ]

    Here is why I don't hate the series: who but Alpha Flight's arch-nemesis could put them in a double-bind? Whether The Master's plan succeeds or fails, it's engineered to (1) take down "Heather" or Mac, or (2) take down "Heather" and Mac. Plus, taint the team and leave them without a leader. The Master takes out his own flunky (Cody)...presumably and unfortunately along with a whole lot of innocent people mixed in with the Unity regime. It's onlyafterThe Master has taken out Cody that Mac's forces strike. [#8 ]

    G/A-F


    Sedition? Revolution? Depends on who you're rebelling against. Just saying you want a revolution isn't bad in and of itself - we all want to change the world.

    Don't get me wrong. The Unity Regime needed to go, but...


    The book, however, didn't do enough for me to set up the evilness of the government. [...I agree, the series makes it seem that the people in the fictional Canada were mostly okay with what Cody was doing. And since most of the regular citizens weren't purple, I can't suspend disbelief that The Master could control enough of the nation to get Cody elected, simultaneously turn humans into 4-toed sycophants, build a spaceship under/in Parliament Hill, and control a Wendigo and a Ranark, all at the same time. The Master may be AF's arch-nemesis, but if he can do all of that....] They kept saying 'Mind control! Mind control!' ...
    Heather's actions - mitigated by mind control. But the writer wasn't.

    ~ Le Messor
    "Gandhi had a sign reading: When you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper; and when you are in the wrong, you cannot afford to lose it."
    ~ Chester Bowles
    Mr. Surviving-fictional-Canadian-high-ranking official, in the aftermath of the alien spacecraft that leveled Parliament Hill, who are Canada's premier protectors? Vindicator? Guardian? Who will defend the Great White North if a Great Beast shows up? Snowbird? Sasquatch? Shaman? Who can we depend on if more Plodex/Skrulls/under-sea barbarians come back? Aurora? Northstar? Marrina?

  4. #34
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    Well as the ending showed, it was clearly overtly by the second to last page, saying that guardian, Sasquatch, aurora, North Star, Puck, Marrina, Shaman, and Snowbird would be the sanctioned alpha flight, while vindicator went off to raise Claire on her own. Yes it was never said in a word balloon, but the full page spread of that team seemed to indicate that would be the case.
    "like Warren Moon before he defected, a perfect spiral!" - Eugene Judd

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    I'll also be perfectly frank, I disagree with the limits your placing on the masters power, as I feel he does have that power to pull off, , particulalrly when you remember the immense fear the world was covered in from that asgardian serpent would have helped sway a fearful nation towards a fear monger like Gary Cody. I'd say more but a.) outside of the heather murdering her cousins and no remorse I have zero venom towards this series, so simply reading why others hate It is simply dissuading me from continuing to take part in this particular thread and b. I found out my essay is due five days earlier than when I initially thought so I can't procrastinate any longer!
    Last edited by Yankee; 04-11-2016 at 02:03 PM. Reason: auto correct
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  6. #36
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    Default HMacH 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
    Well as the ending showed, it was clearly overtly by the second to last page, saying that guardian, Sasquatch, aurora, North Star, Puck, Marrina, Shaman, and Snowbird would be the sanctioned alpha flight, while vindicator went off to raise Claire on her own. Yes it was never said in a word balloon, but the full page spread of that team seemed to indicate that would be the case.

    Even if what you say is true, what's the name used in Captain Marvel's new book? Even if what you say is true, were any members of the team formerly known as Alpha Flight exonerated, either by the Governor General or the new PM? Even if what you say is true, it isn't unreasonable to infer that what they did makes it difficult for an official to make an overt declaration that Guardian, Vindicator, Aurora, Northstar (!), Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, and Marrina are still Canada's sanctioned/premier super-heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
    I'll also be perfectly frank, I disagree with the limits your placing on the masters power [you're entitled to your opinion. Have you started to figure out how many people it would take to get Cody elected, how much time it would take to complete the Unity process, how much energy and skill it would take to control a cannibal and a mystic who is an emissary of the Great Beasts, how many sycophants it takes to run the government and the internment camps, and how much raw material is needed to build a huge spaceship within/underneath Parliament Hill. I'm assuming a lot.], as I feel he does have that power to pull off, , particularly when you remember the immense fear the world was covered in from that asgardian serpent would have helped sway a fearful nation towards a fear monger like Gary Cody. I'd say more but a.) outside of the heather murdering her cousins and no remorse I have zero venom towards this series, so simply reading why others hate It is simply dissuading me from continuing to take part in this particular thread ["hate" is such a strong feeling and as I stated earlier---if you read it---I do not hate this arc. I reserve "hate" for something I truly and thoroughly despise, which is the Mantlo era. If you read the previews about the crossover in Amazing Heroes and Comics Feature and then read the Mantlo era, you may begin to see why I reserve such loathing for that period of Alpha Flight and no other] and b. I found out my essay is due five days earlier than when I initially thought so I can't procrastinate any longer!
    I'll miss ya.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
    Well as the ending showed, it was clearly overtly by the second to last page, saying that guardian, Sasquatch, aurora, North Star, Puck, Marrina, Shaman, and Snowbird would be the sanctioned alpha flight, while vindicator went off to raise Claire on her own. Yes it was never said in a word balloon, but the full page spread of that team seemed to indicate that would be the case.
    I think that was more a metaphor and a traditional super-hero splash page than a direct nod to any sanctioning.

    however...

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    Even if what you say is true, what's the name used in Captain Marvel's new book? Even if what you say is true, were any members of the team formerly known as Alpha Flight exonerated, either by the Governor General or the new PM? Even if what you say is true, it isn't unreasonable to infer that what they did makes it difficult for an official to make an overt declaration that Guardian, Vindicator, Aurora, Northstar (!), Puck, Sasquatch, Snowbird, Shaman, and Marrina are still Canada's sanctioned/premier super-heroes.
    They were back working for the Government in Red Hulk:Mayan Rule (which is set straight after Vol.4), and then in Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo. Also, they were free to go to the US to attend Northstar & Kyle's wedding in between the above two storylines.
    So chances are they were exonerated.

    However however... On the other hand.... - the Government did restart Omega Flight and send them to deal with the Garden Origin Site infestation in Avengers, rather than Alpha Flight....
    Last edited by Phil; 04-11-2016 at 05:08 PM.

  8. #38
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    Default I'd rather come up with a storyline I know I'd like

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I think that was more a metaphor and a traditional super-hero splash page than a direct nod to any sanctioning.
    (me, too. G/A-F)
    however...


    They were back working for the Government in Red Hulk:Mayan Rule (which is set straight after Vol.4), and then in Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo. Also, they were free to go to the US to attend Northstar & Kyle's wedding in between the above two storylines.

    Chances are they were exonerated.

    However... to play devil's advocate - the Government did restart Omega Flight and send them to deal with the Garden Origin Site infestation in Avengers, rather than Alpha Flight....
    FULL DISCLOSURE: I do not have Red Hulk: Mayan Rule, Amazing X-Men: World War Wendigo, or Northstar & Kyle's wedding.
    Even if I had the money, if Alpha Flight volume 4 couldn't bother to tell what happened to 1 Wendigo(, Ranark, and an adamantium terrorist), why should I think that there's going to be a resolution with a whole army of Wendigoes?

    Whenever a new AF series comes out, there's a big frenzy to buy lots and lots of copies so it will sell well and be popular and give the characters lots of exposure and show MARVEL that AF has a solid group of supporters. And then, when the readers who actually care about the group cut back from buying umpteen copies of the same thing, the powers that be claim that the readership is dwindling, that AF doesn't have devoted supports, and the team isn't viable. I'm tired of playing that game.
    The Mostly-New, Mostly-Different AF1

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    if Alpha Flight volume 4 couldn't bother to tell what happened to 1 Wendigo(, Ranark, and an adamantium terrorist)
    I'm genuinely interested as to why you think it's a case of they couldn't be bothered?
    Life doesn't have perfect wrapped up stories, so why does fiction have to?
    Not everything has to be explained and tied up in a bow; things take priority - especially when governed by profit/loss.
    Especially in an ongoing comic universe where the story is never over.

    I mentioned RH:MR and AX:WWW as these continued the story and actually answered your question as to government status.

    Whenever a new AF series comes out, there's a big frenzy to buy lots and lots of copies so it will sell well and be popular and give the characters lots of exposure and show MARVEL that AF has a solid group of supporters.
    There's only a frenzy if you choose there to be one.
    Where your own money is concerned you should never be manipulated!

    And then, when the readers who actually care about the group cut back from buying umpteen copies of the same thing, the powers that be claim that the readership is dwindling, that AF doesn't have devoted supports, and the team isn't viable. I'm tired of playing that game.
    There's the problem then; people shouldn't buy more than one copy - that's clearly just creating a house of false statistics that inevitably comes tumbling down, proving Marvel right.
    And that's fine, don't play the game - I fully, fully support your decision and completely agree with it; if you don't enjoy something, don't pay money for it.

    However, just because you personally don't like something, it doesn't mean that it was bad.
    Personally I think Volume 4 was far truer to Byrne than 2&3. And nowhere near 'demolishing' or 'character assassinating'

    You say you'd 'rather come up with a storyline you know you'd like' - what's to say that anyone else would like it?
    I'm sure Pak & Van Lente liked their storyline.

    All this is very much off-topic though; I'm interested to see your vision of the team, and hopefully I will like it!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I think that was more a metaphor and a traditional super-hero splash page than a direct nod to any sanctioning.

    however...


    They were back working for the Government in Red Hulk:Mayan Rule (which is set straight after Vol.4), and then in Amazing X-Men:World War Wendigo. Also, they were free to go to the US to attend Northstar & Kyle's wedding in between the above two storylines.
    So chances are they were exonerated.

    However however... On the other hand.... - the Government did restart Omega Flight and send them to deal with the Garden Origin Site infestation in Avengers, rather than Alpha Flight....
    Which reminds me, I'm getting an edition of world war wendigo trade on loan from my schools library so il let you know what I think. And Garry, you say you don't hate it, then fine you don't hate it, I mispoke. but to be fair, that makes me utterly terrified to read your review of mantalo or something else that you actually hated. I don't nessecairly like mantalo (after hobnell he was the weakest of the volume 1 writers) and their are many decisions he made I utterly hated ( creating persuasion, making heather care more about her boy toy then she did the rest of the team post bedlam, the utter insanity of having the dreamqueen and sorceror arcs occur right after each other with no time to breathe etc) but their were storylines and arcs I did like (the pestilence arc (I know controversial opinion) the puck Tibet two parter, Revamping box from Bochs to Jefferies, etc) and I'd rather not get angry reading your opinions on those. As much as you don't hate volume 4, the way you wrote about came off to me as unfair in many places and I'm only going to assume that my perception won't change reading your opinion on something you legitimately hate. Your welcome to your opinions, I just will choose not to read them from here on in. Best of luck to you though.
    "like Warren Moon before he defected, a perfect spiral!" - Eugene Judd

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
    As much as you don't hate volume 4, the way you wrote about came off to me as unfair in many places
    Someone's personal opinions on a piece of fiction can never be unfair.
    Garry has his views, and he's vocalizing them - he hasn't once tried to change anyone else's views.

    I'm only going to assume that my perception won't change reading your opinion on something you legitimately hate.
    Again; he's not trying to change your perception; he's giving his reasoning for his views.

    Your welcome to your opinions, I just will choose not to read them from here on in. Best of luck to you though.
    That strikes me as bizarre, personally.
    Does reading Garry's personal opinions about fictional characters really vex you that much?
    Would it not be boring if we all had exactly the same opinions?
    Hell, I'd probably have about 7000 less posts...

    Let's all embrace the fact that we actually share some common opinions!

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    Default Volume 4 is volume 4; volume 1 is volume 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    I'm genuinely interested as to why you think it's a case of they couldn't be bothered?
    Life doesn't have perfect wrapped up stories, so why does fiction have to?
    [(a) good fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because (2) fiction is not real life. Real life is real life.] Garry R. Jones
    Not everything has to be explained [explaining/showing what happened to Wendigo, Citadel, Ranark, or Purple Woman when Squatch started choking the crap out of Northstar shouldn't be too much to ask] and tied up in a bow; [satisfying fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because good fiction is satisfying fiction] ...
    Especially in an ongoing comic universe where the story is never over.

    I mentioned RH:MR and AX:WWW as these continued the story and actually answered your question as to government status. [and you can post a panel that will confirm this, I assume?]


    There's only a frenzy if you choose there to be one. [?]
    Where your own money is concerned you should never be manipulated! [?????????? I said I didn't want to play the profit-and-unviable game anymore; I don't think I said anything about being manipulated.]


    There's the problem then; people shouldn't buy more than one copy - that's clearly just creating a house of false statistics that inevitably comes tumbling down, proving Marvel right. [BINGO!]
    And that's fine, don't play the game - I fully, fully support your decision and completely agree with it; if you don't enjoy something, don't pay money for it.

    However, just because you personally don't like something, it doesn't mean that it was bad. [You've jumped from something I "don't enjoy" inferring that it means it is something "bad". If I ever said/or wrote that volume 4 was bad, please point that out to me (so I can apologize). If I ever said volume 3 or 2 was bad, please point that out to me. If I ever said that Omega Flight mini-series was bad, please point that out to me. If I ever said that I didn't like volume 2, 3, 4 or the Omega Flight mini-series, please point that out to me.

    What I have said/written and I mean to this day ---and make no apologies for---is I hate the Mantlo era. No inference needed.

    Personally I think Volume 4 was far truer to Byrne than 2&3. And nowhere near 'demolishing' or 'character assassinating'

    You say you'd 'rather come up with a storyline you know you'd like' - what's to say that anyone else would like it? [You imply that it has to be published, like what you're used to]
    ...
    All this is very much off-topic though [not really]; I'm interested to see your vision of the team, and hopefully I will like it!
    It amazes me that this is the longest response/reply you've ever sent me...IIRC.
    Last edited by Garry/Al-Fan; 04-11-2016 at 06:18 PM.

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    Default The Mantlo era: redux

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee View Post
    Which reminds me, I'm getting an edition of world war wendigo trade on loan from my schools library so il let you know what I think. And Garry, you say you don't hate it, then fine you don't hate it, I mispoke. but to be fair, that makes me utterly terrified to read your review of mantalo (then don't read Amazing Heroes # 117...written waaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the '80s) or something else that you actually hated. I don't nessecairly like mantalo (after hobnell he was the weakest of the volume 1 writers) and their are many decisions he made I utterly hated ( creating persuasion, making heather care more about her boy toy then she did the rest of the team post bedlam, the utter insanity of having the dreamqueen and sorceror arcs occur right after each other with no time to breathe etc) but their were storylines and arcs I did like (the pestilence arc (I know controversial opinion) the puck Tibet two parter, Revamping box from Bochs to Jefferies, etc) and I'd rather not get angry reading your opinions on those. As much as you don't hate volume 4, the way you wrote about came off to me as unfair in many places and I'm only going to assume that my perception won't change reading your opinion on something you legitimately hate. Your welcome to your opinions, I just will choose not to read them from here on in. Best of luck to you though.
    [I thought you had an over-due essay to write?]

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    [I thought you had an over-due essay to write?]
    the essay isn't overdue it's just due five days earlier than when I thought it was, and I did my writing on it for the day
    "like Warren Moon before he defected, a perfect spiral!" - Eugene Judd

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry/Al-Fan View Post
    [(a) good fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because (2) fiction is not real life. Real life is real life.] Garry R. Jones
    But an ending is finite.
    These are ongoing serial tales that aren't necessarily linear. The beauty of comics is flashbacks and filling in details, and also letting the reader fill in gaps themselves.

    explaining/showing what happened to Wendigo, Citadel, Ranark, or Purple Woman when Squatch started choking the crap out of Northstar shouldn't be too much to ask
    But are they major elements? Can the story continue without that information?
    If you have to trim the fat for space reasons you need to find things that can be cut without affecting the story you're trying to tell.
    These aren't essential plot elements therefore they're not always necessary. Especially if a reader can infer what happened later.

    satisfying fiction should have a beginning, middle, and end because good fiction is satisfying fiction
    It clearly had an end though.
    It may have only been for the major players in the story, but it clearly had an end.
    An end that satisfied some people.

    and you can post a panel that will confirm this, I assume?
    At a quick search; a panel from each suggesting they're working for the Government again:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	5204 Click image for larger version. 

Name:	WWW.jpg 
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ID:	5203


    ?
    I just think frenzy is a strange word to use. I can't fathom anything in comics being a frenzy, personally speaking.

    ?????????? I said I didn't want to play the profit-and-unviable game anymore; I don't think I said anything about being manipulated.
    It was a general 'you' rather than Garry 'you' - apologies if that wasn't made clear.
    It was just the way you said "there's a big frenzy to buy lots and lots of copies so it will sell well and be popular" which if it were the case, I would class as corporate manipulation - buy multiple copies of these characters else they go away for ever and you never see them ha ha ha ha ha etc.

    You've jumped from something I "don't enjoy" inferring that it means it is something "bad". If I ever said/or wrote that volume 4 was bad,
    please point that out to me (so I can apologize).
    Again, I've misphrased that, so apologies - general community 'you'
    Maybe I should have said "However, just because someone personally dislikes something, it doesn't mean that it was bad."
    All in all; one man's gold is another man's excrement.

    What I have said/written and I mean to this day ---and make no apologies for---is I hate the Mantlo era. No inference needed.
    And I will support your right to that hate!

    You imply that it has to be published, like what you're used to
    It depends on your use of 'published'
    Do you mean published as in professionally and for profit, or just published online for others to read?
    I'm 100% for fan-fiction and there hasn't been any here in a long time.
    If you meant that you'd rather write a storyline for yourself and for no-one but you to read then that's fair enough.

    It amazes me that this is the longest response/reply you've ever sent me...IIRC.
    I don't talk about Volume 1 a lot, to be honest.
    I tend to talk about what's being published lately.
    This is rooted in Volume 4 so it's relevant to my general conversing.
    Last edited by Phil; 04-11-2016 at 07:00 PM.

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