Mac's Leadership/Heather's Leadership

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06-24-2014
Phil

Mac's Leadership/Heather's Leadership

Spinning out of http://alphaflight.net/showthread.ph...f-Alpha-Flight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Heather puts on the suit in Alpha Flight #32.
Heather kills Snowbird in Alpha Flight #44.

That's 13 issues, before she's a better leader, in killing a member.

Mac, who we can say had the 2 issues in UXM (120/121), 139 & 140, and we shall say about 6 of the issues of the original volume before his demise - means he was a "leader" for 10 issues, without killing a single member.

I think the issue here is that you're applying real-world logic to super-powered fiction.
You clearly take issue with the fact that Heather killed someone.
Does this make Captain America a bad leader? Wolverine a bad leader? Justice a bad leader?

And, the person who she killed was Snowbird, who as you later say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

AI love Snowbird (which is why Heather's choice offends me so much, LOL)

So your dislike of Heather's leadership is personal one, no? Had her first kill been Earthmover would you have been bothered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSOG

The mistake of reflecting a shot off Colossus isn't even a leadership thing. It's a lack of familiarity with his suit. He wasn't leading anybody.

Okay, being that specific; Mac was leading the team when they died against The Collective.
That's six dead Alphans (including himself) and one severely injured, that he led into battle.

Quote:

By the time she'd had 20 or so issues to herself, she was down to two other full-fledged members, who must have been getting a little nervous by this point.

So, by devil's advocate logic; Heather was a better leader as her team was streamlined with less members and less experienced members, and yet still achieved more.

And just to clarify here; nowhere have I ever said that I think Heather was a better leader - just that she's referenced as such throughout the last two-thirds of the original series; by the writers who are writing her and not Mac as leader.
06-24-2014
TSOG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

Although to be fair, as much as I love Snowbird (which is why Heather's choice offends me so much, LOL) - Snowbird did sort of rip out Water's heart... So...

Well, yeah, but, you know...These things happen...
06-24-2014
TSOG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Okay, being that specific; Mac was leading the team when they died against The Collective.
That's six dead Alphans (including himself) and one severely injured, that he led into battle.

Well, the ones that Heather had yet to kill herself, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

So, by devil's advocate logic; Heather was a better leader as her team was streamlined with less members and less experienced members, and yet still achieved more.

And just to clarify here; nowhere have I ever said that I think Heather was a better leader - just that she's referenced as such throughout the last two-thirds of the original series; by the writers who are writing her and not Mac as leader.

Then I don't understand where THEY came up with that either. The one time that comes to mind that she gave me the impression that she was a good leader at all was the Northstar mini when she helped him without his knowledge then made him feel like part of the family. That was way better than the time that she poked fun at him for feeling like he'd been raped.
06-24-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Spinning out of http://alphaflight.net/showthread.ph...f-Alpha-Flight

Spinning... no wonder why I feel dizzy. LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I think the issue here is that you're applying real-world logic to super-powered fiction. You clearly take issue with the fact that Heather killed someone.
Does this make Captain America a bad leader? Wolverine a bad leader? Justice a bad leader?

I don't recall Captain America killing anyone... well, okay, other than Nazis. But he might have killed someone else?
Wolverine a bad leader? Holy, frick yes. Wolverine, to me, is nowhere near leadership quality.
Justice, I would say he's fine - he actually killed his father on accident, in self defense, when he was being violently beat. He lashed out accidentally and killed his father, as a result. He didn't kill his father by choice. And not only that, Justice took responsibility. He went to jail. He did his time. Even when the New Warriors went to bust him out, he refused and went back. I didn't see anything like that in Heather. She killed Snowbird, with little thought, and certainly no consequences afterwards. No remorse. (Not sure if that's Heather's fault or just poor writing - but it seems like it would have been a goldmine chance at developing Heather accepting what she did).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

And, the person who she killed was Snowbird
So your dislike of Heather's leadership is personal one, no? Had her first kill been Earthmover would you have been bothered?

Is it personal? Well, Hades yes! For me, there is an element of personal because I do love Snowbird.
But even if I step outside the fact that I do love Snowbird, it seemed like a very rash choice. Had she taken out Earthmover instead, would I be less upset? I'd be personally less upset, since he didn't have much in the way of appearances or development, sure. But I'd still think if Earthmover was a part of the team (and didn't get much development, we shall say) - that taking him out without giving him a chance, would be a harsh and overly quick decision. I would think the likes of Mac, Captain America, even (classic) Cyclops would have searched for another option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Okay, being that specific; Mac was leading the team when they died against The Collective.
That's six dead Alphans (including himself) and one severely injured, that he led into battle.

Heather got all of Alpha Flight killed when they went after the Great Beasts, to save Walter's soul. :) (Though she wasn't yet in the Vindicator outfit... Still, she's as much to blame as saying Mac was the reason they all died off panel against the Collective!) :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

And just to clarify here; nowhere have I ever said that I think Heather was a better leader - just that she's referenced as such throughout the last two-thirds of the original series; by the writers who are writing her and not Mac as leader.

To be clear, I hope, I never felt like I was saying YOU specifically said this. My discussion is with the general feeling that people seem to think Heather was a better leader. :)
06-24-2014
Le Messor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I think the issue here is that you're applying real-world logic to super-powered fiction.
You clearly take issue with the fact that Heather killed someone.
Does this make Captain America a bad leader? Wolverine a bad leader? Justice a bad leader?

The important point here being, none of those were team kills; Heather's was.

In super-powered fiction, good leaders often end up in a no-win situation where their choices are let a teammate die or face worse consequences to the world - and still somehow win both. They break into the Kyobashi Maru simulation and reprogram it, as it were.
Heather didn't.

(Devil's advocating myself a bit here... I like Heather more than Mac, and blame all her bad decisions on bad writing, not on her.)

~ Le Messor
"Mrs. Ghandi is in a sari state."
06-24-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

(Devil's advocating myself a bit here... I like Heather more than Mac, and blame all her bad decisions on bad writing, not on her.)

Without a doubt, it was bad writing, more than Heather. Unfortunately, when a writer gets a hold of a character, they mold it to how they see fit. (For example, I loved all the "All New X-Men" team (Cyclops, Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Wolverine) - now, almost none of them are even remotely recognizable to me, other than Nightcrawler, and even he went way off the radar for a long time)... So that said, perhaps - if, with better writing, Heather would have truly showed signs of remorse in the following issue, struggled with the choice that she just killed one of her own team mates (who wasn't an immediate threat yet, it's not like Pestilence had her!) - if I had seen something that showed me that she was trying to live with the choice she made - then, I think I could have honestly accepted her choice. I said before (in the other thread this spun from), that I don't know if it was bad writing or Heather to blame... But really, they go hand in hand. The writer forges that character. Bill, sadly made her a woman, who was once a gentle heart, to what I felt like a power hungry, crazy bizzach, who had little remorse and little care for anything or anyone around her.

But the time the other writers came aboard, I was already too burned about how Heather had been written.

I think that's why Amazing X-Men #8 was nice to me - because it had been long enough that my seething hatred of Heather's actions has simmered down, and seeing her being gentle again with Wolverine, reminded me of the Heather I remembered and enjoyed.
06-24-2014
Le Messor

Is it just me, or does Amazing X-Men #8 echo Uncanny X-Men #139 - with Wolverine coming to Canada, finding Heather alone, and then going off to fight Wendigo?
06-24-2014
Phil

Yup. I presumed that was intentional; hence the cabin.
06-24-2014
Phil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

My discussion is with the general feeling that people seem to think Heather was a better leader. :)

I've had a quick flick through #33-100 this evening, I'll do 101-130 and beyond over the next few days and then paste it all here...
06-24-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Messor

Is it just me, or does Amazing X-Men #8 echo Uncanny X-Men #139 - with Wolverine coming to Canada, finding Heather alone, and then going off to fight Wendigo?

Holy crud. I hadn't even put that together... As Phil said... I bet that was intentional.
06-24-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

I've had a quick flick through #33-100 this evening, I'll do 101-130 and beyond over the next few days and then paste it all here...

You realize the Llan the Sorcerer storyline is in there too, right? I wouldn't wish that on anyone. To spare you, I'd even concede that Heather was a better leader!
06-24-2014
Mekko Hotvle

"To be able to lead others, a man must be willing to go forward alone."
~Harry Truman
06-24-2014
Flightpath07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tawmis

You realize the Llan the Sorcerer storyline is in there too, right? I wouldn't wish that on anyone. To spare you, I'd even concede that Heather was a better leader!

lol. You know, I am almost starting to hope that somebody brings Llan back...as Alpha Flight's new leader! lol.
06-24-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekko Hotvle

"To be able to lead others, a man must be willing to go forward alone."
~Harry Truman

A man who moves forward alone, leaves him team behind.
~ Tawmis

:)
06-24-2014
Tawmis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flightpath07

lol. You know, I am almost starting to hope that somebody brings Llan back...as Alpha Flight's new leader! lol.

If this happens, I will look for you! :D

As much as I hate Llan the Sorcerer, I did indeed use him in the "Alternate Marvel" thing I started 14 years (even longer?) ago.

So I got some folks interested in writing fanfic - and came up with the idea, "What if the heroes beat Onslaught and there was no Heroes Reborn?"

We hammered out some things that changed. Then each of us took on a book (Uncanny X-Men, Alpha Flight, Avengers, etc etc) and wrote in a shared universe. I wrote two "limited series" using Alpha Flight, and in one of them, used Llan the Sorcerer (and had Shaman kick his booty). But I didn't write him to be punked - I wrote him, as a legitimate villain.