• Amazing X-Men #11 Solicitation

    Comicbook.com have an EXCLUSIVE preview of the September 2014 X-book solicitations which includes Amazing X-Men #11, guest starring Alpha Flight:

    AMAZING X-MEN #11

    CRAIG KYLE & CHRIS YOST (W)
    CARLO BARBERI (A/C)
    Part 4 (of 5) of World War Wendigo!
    • As the Wendigo threat spreads across Canada, the X-Men take the battle to a new front—the Spirit Realm!
    • Guest staring Alpha Flight!
    32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99
    FOC 9/1/14, On-Sale 9/24/14

    Looks like Northstar, Guardian, Vindicator and Sasquatch on the cover.
    Comments 88 Comments
    1. Tawmis's Avatar
      Tawmis -
      (That is naturally a rhetorical question, I don't expect you to know for real, or anything! Just saying it for discussion's sake!)
    1. Le Messor's Avatar
      Le Messor -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      I'm guessing that none of it will be touched as it's all just too messy to go back to.
      This isn't a case of going back and cleaning up earlier stuff; most of these questions came out of AmzX #8.

      ~ LM
    1. Phil's Avatar
      Phil -
      Quote Originally Posted by Tawmis View Post
      Now see, why wouldn't they have just gone with Heather saying, they've had a bad year and she's given up the super hero business.
      Who says she's given up though? She still has her costume.

      And go on to say that Mac hasn't returned in awhile, and then Wolverine says, "I think we need to go look for him, then." And Heather says, "Well I have given it up. I had a really rough year." Wolverine gives her the pep talk of, "You're a strong woman, and my healing factor is gone. I could really use you Heather." And Heather says, "Okay, let's do this then."

      Seems like they could have gone a much simplier route than "We had a bad year" and "a bad fight" and "Mac might not come back."

      That's just opening up questions that are begging to be answered; and if there's no intention of answering them, why not go a much simplier route?
      Because it's an X-Men book not an Alpha Flight book.

      Wolverine helps Heather.

      In your scenario Wolverine needs Heather's help. That's a Wolverine guest-appearance in an Alpha Flight book.
    1. Phil's Avatar
      Phil -
      Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
      This isn't a case of going back and cleaning up earlier stuff; most of these questions came out of AmzX #8.
      Not sure which questions you're on about, but the original ones that I was referring to:
      Quote Originally Posted by GingrBeard View Post
      Why is Heather not in prison for murdering her family to get her daughter back? Where is her daughter now? Why did Mac take her back?
      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      Did Heather ever get her toes back?
      came out of Volume 4. Which by the end had a maximum 18,000 people reading it.
      Amazing X-Men is not the place to answer these questions at the expense of it's own storyline.
    1. Flightpath07's Avatar
      Flightpath07 -
      Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
      This isn't a case of going back and cleaning up earlier stuff; most of these questions came out of AmzX #8.

      ~ LM
      That's DAYS ago! Far, far, far in the past! People have very short attention spa...Hey! Was that a squirrel!?!? (Or, even better, a Squirrel-Girl?!)
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      Amazing X-Men is not the place to answer these questions at the expense of it's own storyline.
      A gentleman on Twitter yesterday posted a panel from Wolverine 142 and 143, a story in which Snowbird was brought back and the whole double Mac thing was done away with (and I doubt volume two sales figures were significantly better than four's).

      For that matter, Heather's pregnancy was announced in Wolverine and she gave birth in Unlimited X-Men (?). It doesn't have to be an Alpha Flight book to tie up loose ends. It can be done without being a detriment to the story.

      (Though I wasn't serious about the toe thing.)
    1. Phil's Avatar
      Phil -
      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      and I doubt volume two sales figures were significantly better than four's).
      They were about 4 times as good, off the of my head.

      EDIT - Industry sales were generally about twice as good back in the late 90's though.

      It doesn't have to be an Alpha Flight book to tie up loose ends. It can be done without being a detriment to the story.
      Agreed; It doesn't have to be, but most writers don't want to spend their time cleaning up other people's dangling plots at the expense of their own characters.
    1. Tawmis's Avatar
      Tawmis -
      I am choosing to believe that at least this fight and/or bad year, will be explained. If I am wrong, so be it. But I am hopeful.
    1. Phil's Avatar
      Phil -
      I took the 'bad year' comment as a way of summing up, tying up and moving on from Volume 4 in one line, so that it doesn't need to be touched on again.

      I could be wrong though.
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      Agreed; It doesn't have to be, but most writers don't want to spend their time cleaning up other people's dangling plots at the expense of their own characters.
      I don't expect them to, I appreciate it when they do. But that's different from choosing to ignore what went on before you had your turn at the characters. Unfortunately, it's happened far too many times with this group.

      And it doesn't have to be at the expense of anybody. Wolverine did not suffer from what happened in issues 142 and 143 of his book.
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      I took the 'bad year' comment as a way of summing up, tying up and moving on from Volume 4 in one line, so that it doesn't need to be touched on again.

      I could be wrong though.
      If it is, it's a lazy way of doing it.
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      They were about 4 times as good, off the of my head.

      EDIT - Industry sales were generally about twice as good back in the late 90's though.
      I checked Comichron, and Alpha Flight 11 sold an estimated 45,100 copies.

      it's actually quite jarring to see the differences in sales between then and now.
    1. Le Messor's Avatar
      Le Messor -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      Not sure which questions you're on about
      Mostly:

      Quote Originally Posted by GingrBeard View Post
      Where is (Heather's) daughter now?
      Why is Guardians leaf upside down in this cover?
      and questions about the fight Heather and Mac had.

      Though the others, 'why isn't Heather in prison?', 'what happened to Heather's toes?', and 'who mentioned v3 and Omega Flight in Crackity's presence?' are, as you say, not for X-Men writers to tackle.

      The Heather's daughter question could be (and has been, I believe, in the past) tackled with a simple 'Claire's at her aunt's place'-type line.

      ~ Le Messor
      "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other."
      ~ Mother Teresa
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
      Though the others, 'why isn't Heather in prison?', 'what happened to Heather's toes?', and 'who mentioned v3 and Omega Flight in Crackity's presence?' are, as you say, not for X-Men writers to tackle.

      The Heather's daughter question could be (and has been, I believe, in the past) tackled with a simple 'Claire's at her aunt's place'-type line.
      That's pretty much it. It doesn't have to be page after page of explanation. But the conversation could have been more inclusive of what's gone on before. "When I came to my senses after The Master's brainwashing, Mac and I got back together. But lately we've been having a rough go of it. We got in a major fight the other day. He walked out and took on a Dept. H assignment".

      They don't have to dwell on V4, but they should at least acknowledge it. Otherwise the whole thing just feels thrown together. It was great to see them, but it was awkward because I felt like I'd missed something. "Oh, so...they're back together I guess?!"
    1. Flightpath07's Avatar
      Flightpath07 -
      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      That's pretty much it. It doesn't have to be page after page of explanation. But the conversation could have been more inclusive of what's gone on before. "When I came to my senses after The Master's brainwashing, Mac and I got back together. But lately we've been having a rough go of it. We got in a major fight the other day. He walked out and took on a Dept. H assignment".

      They don't have to dwell on V4, but they should at least acknowledge it. Otherwise the whole thing just feels thrown together. It was great to see them, but it was awkward because I felt like I'd missed something. "Oh, so...they're back together I guess?!"
      That's a great way of looking at it.
    1. Phil's Avatar
      Phil -
      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      But that's different from choosing to ignore what went on before you had your turn at the characters.
      As long as it doesn't contradict it though, does it matter? Why rehash it?

      And it doesn't have to be at the expense of anybody. Wolverine did not suffer from what happened in issues 142 and 143 of his book.
      That was a solo book though.
      The cast of Amazing X-Men is Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm, Iceman, Firestar, Beast, Warbird, Rachel Grey, Angel + now Colossus.
      And there are only 20 pages in each of the 5 parts to the storyline.

      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      If it is, it's a lazy way of doing it.
      Is a haiku lazy?
      Is a short story lazy?

      Surely it's good writing to tell an engaging, logical story without excess information, that gives the reader the credit/intelligence/creativity to world build and fill in gaps themselves.

      That line for anyone that's never read X-Men and has never heard of Heather & Mac before will read it as the couple had a fight and understand that.
      Anyone that read Volume 4 will understand what the fight was about and get the tip of the hat.
      Both audiences catered for without the loss of pages.

      That's not lazy.

      However, as I stated here, I believe that Heather was written badly, for which I'll go into in a bit.

      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      I checked Comichron, and Alpha Flight 11 sold an estimated 45,100 copies.
      I stand corrected and apologise for my poor memory/maths in that case.
      Still double Vol 4 though

      Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
      The Heather's daughter question could be (and has been, I believe, in the past) tackled with a simple 'Claire's at her aunt's place'-type line.
      Agreed, it just has to come at an organic point in the story.
      It can't just be blurted out by Wolverine mid-fight.
      An ideal place would be when(/if) Wolverine & Heather rescue Mac and he utters a "... our daughter...?" line, to which Heather replied "She's safe, don't worry about her." (Although thinking about it that's pretty much exactly the dialogue between Walt & Heather in CW:AF)

      BUT that would then just complicate things and confuse readers even more because the daughter wasn't mentioned in #8.

      Claire SHOULD have been mentioned in one throwaway line in #8 but she wasn't (due to poorly written Heather), so now it makes no sense to bring her up later in the arc.

      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      That's pretty much it. It doesn't have to be page after page of explanation. But the conversation could have been more inclusive of what's gone on before. "When I came to my senses after The Master's brainwashing, Mac and I got back together. But lately we've been having a rough go of it. We got in a major fight the other day. He walked out and took on a Dept. H assignment".
      But remember there are readers here who didn't read Volume 4.
      Marvel Comics don't have footnotes anymore so were the writers to use that line they'd then need to explain:
      • when Heather was brainwashed
      • how Heather was brainwashed
      • why Heather was brainwashed
      • who The Master is
      • how Heather came to her senses.

      You've lost an entire page there, at least.

      They don't have to dwell on V4, but they should at least acknowledge it.
      That's the equivalent of saying that Amazing X-Men should acknowledge every loose end from Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, or every guest appearance Wolverine has made this month.

      It was great to see them, but it was awkward because I felt like I'd missed something. "Oh, so...they're back together I guess?!"
      I agree; it was awkward, not because of the lack of Volume 4 references, but because Heather was out of character.
    1. Le Messor's Avatar
      Le Messor -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      An ideal place would be when(/if) Wolverine & Heather rescue Mac and he utters a "... our daughter...?" line, to which Heather replied "She's safe, don't worry about her." (Although thinking about it that's pretty much exactly the dialogue between Walt & Heather in CW:AF)

      BUT that would then just complicate things and confuse readers even more because the daughter wasn't mentioned in #8.

      Claire SHOULD have been mentioned in one throwaway line in #8 but she wasn't (due to poorly written Heather), so now it makes no sense to bring her up later in the arc.
      There's still time.
      I think they could work it in without being too inorganic.

      And, of all these questions, this is the only one that actually bugs me - and it's the one that I do think needs to be addressed. These two have an infant daughter, wayyyy too young to be out on her own, and yet she's nowhere to be seen.

      They can go without talking about how Heather got over the brainwash, but not that.

      ~ Le Messor
      Lawyer: Mrs. Jones, do you believe you are emotionally stable?
      Mrs. Jones: A: I used to be.
      Lawyer: How many times have you committed suicide?
      ~ allegedly real court transcript
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      As long as it doesn't contradict it though, does it matter? Why rehash it?
      It did contradict. When last seen, Heather had run away from Mac with their daughter. Now they've apparently been living together again for some time. It's totally opposite to what we last saw of the characters (Heather at least).

      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      That was a solo book though.
      The cast of Amazing X-Men is Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm, Iceman, Firestar, Beast, Warbird, Rachel Grey, Angel + now Colossus.
      And there are only 20 pages in each of the 5 parts to the storyline.
      I'm not asking for more. I'm saying apply the ones used better. Even a splash page recap would take no more space or as I said earlier, dialogue more appropriate and specific to the character(s).

      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      Surely it's good writing to tell an engaging, logical story without excess information, that gives the reader the credit/intelligence/creativity to world build and fill in gaps themselves.

      That line for anyone that's never read X-Men and has never heard of Heather & Mac before will read it as the couple had a fight and understand that.

      Anyone that read Volume 4 will understand what the fight was about and get the tip of the hat.

      Both audiences catered for without the loss of pages.

      That's not lazy.
      I disagree because we actually don't know what the fight was about. We're just told that there was one. They can't even be bothered with a basic mention. "We fought over Clare again". Five words solve several complaints; you know why, you ackowledge their kid, and you indicate that it's fairly common.

      As it is, it ends up feeling like they needed Mac gone for a couple of days so they said "let's just say they had a fight". You're left to assume the reason, and because I don't see Mac as the type of walk out on someone he didn't want walking out on him, it makes no sense to me.

      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      I stand corrected and apologise for my poor memory/maths in that case.
      Still double Vol 4 though
      Which is equivalent in sales by today's standard, as you stated.

      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      But remember there are readers here who didn't read Volume 4.
      Marvel Comics don't have footnotes anymore so were the writers to use that line they'd then need to explain:
      • when Heather was brainwashed
      • how Heather was brainwashed
      • why Heather was brainwashed
      • who The Master is
      • how Heather came to her senses.

      You've lost an entire page there, at least.
      No, you don't need all of that stuff because if someone wants to find out, the material IS out there. I don't know if Marvel never ever does footnotes anymore, but restoring it to say "see Alpha Flight volume four" is hardly an insurmountable barrier, if the dialogue alone doesn't do enough to explain that she took off under a bad situation, came back, and the whole thing put a strain on their marriage.

      The things I refer to, that I feel should have been handled better, are things that are NOT stated anywhere. There was nothing to suggest that Mac and Heather were back together or that Heather had a change of heart about Mac being a suitable father. It's just thrown out there out of nowhere.

      Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
      That's the equivalent of saying that Amazing X-Men should acknowledge every loose end from Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, or every guest appearance Wolverine has made this month.
      If they use a character from the past, yes. There's no point in having a shared universe if things that happen to a character in one book are ignored in others. I'm not expecting the writers to build on what happened in AF v4, but I do expect them to recognize that it happened and write accordingly.
    1. TSOG's Avatar
      TSOG -
      Quote Originally Posted by Le Messor View Post
      And, of all these questions, this is the only one that actually bugs me - and it's the one that I do think needs to be addressed. These two have an infant daughter, wayyyy too young to be out on her own, and yet she's nowhere to be seen.
      You have to assume that there aren't many family members who would want to babysit these days...
    1. Phil's Avatar
      Phil -
      Quote Originally Posted by TSOG View Post
      It did contradict. When last seen, Heather had run away from Mac with their daughter. Now they've apparently been living together again for some time. It's totally opposite to what we last saw of the characters (Heather at least).
      That's not a contradiction though; that's unspecified, off-panel development.
      Contradiction would be saying that Volume 4 never happened and that Mac & Heather have never fought before, or don't have a child.

      Even a splash page recap would take no more space
      That I agree on.

      I disagree because we actually don't know what the fight was about. We're just told that there was one.
      That's the point though; we don't need to know what the fight was about to understand what a fight is.
      If Heather says 'we had a fight' a new reader knows what a fight is because it's a commonly shared occurrence - they don't need to know the backstory.

      They can't even be bothered with a basic mention. "We fought over Clare again". Five words solve several complaints; you know why, you ackowledge their kid, and you indicate that it's fairly common.
      I agree. They SHOULD have done that in #8.
      They didn't so it will be awkward to do so in #9-12

      No, you don't need all of that stuff because if someone wants to find out, the material IS out there.
      If Amazing X-Men #8 was your first ever comic, how would you know where to look though?

      I don't know if Marvel never ever does footnotes anymore, but restoring it to say "see Alpha Flight volume four" is hardly an insurmountable barrier, if the dialogue alone doesn't do enough to explain that she took off under a bad situation, came back, and the whole thing put a strain on their marriage.
      Again, I agree; footnotes, like recap pages, solve this issue so easily. I'm a big fan of footnotes.
      Marvel doesn't use them though. Possibly because most readers these days are edging towards trades and digital comics where the footnote becomes obsolete.

      The things I refer to, that I feel should have been handled better, are things that are NOT stated anywhere. There was nothing to suggest that Mac and Heather were back together or that Heather had a change of heart about Mac being a suitable father. It's just thrown out there out of nowhere.
      You're saying that as a Mac & Heather fan, and someone who read Volume 4.
      The small detail doesn't change the plot of the story; yes it makes 18,000 continuity fans (myself included) sleep a bit easier, but it isn't essential to the plot. Unfortunately.

      There's no point in having a shared universe if things that happen to a character in one book are ignored in others.
      Not bringing something up is different to ignoring something though.

      I'm not expecting the writers to build on what happened in AF v4, but I do expect them to recognize that it happened and write accordingly.
      It is still accordingly though; until the moment it specifically contradicts it - If the characters suddenly announced they'd never had a baby or that they'd never had a fight, I'd be screaming from the rooftops.

      I agree with a lot of what everyone, including you, has been saying - there are things that should have been handled better. It wasn't. This was why I didn't like the issue.
      However, now that it hasn't been mentioned trying to mention it later in the arc will just tie the story in knots.